Help with Identification please - Page 3

A. G. Maisey · 4th September 2010, 09:09 PM

That can often be the question, Alam Shah:- conserve or restore?

Sometimes it may be more wise to leave the problem for somebody else to fix in another 50 years or so.

Regarding your friend's pesi that broke. It is entirely possible that it had rusted through in any case. If you could see the white of un-rusted steel in the separation, OK, it broke. But if you could not, it was possibly rusted through.

As long as there is some part of the pesi left it is easy to repair, and the shortened or more slender pesi is only evidence of age.This is a standard, expected part of maintenance in Jawa.

Even when the pesi is completely broken off and no part of it is left, it can be repaired, although at that point the blade has lost its integrity.

kai · 5th September 2010, 03:01 AM

Hello Shahrial,

Quote:

Yeah Kai, as far as I can remember, you already have this blade form..

That's comparing a noble breed with a mundane work horse...

(in any case that's the beauty of handmade pieces - you can always find an excuse why you have to add something to any given collection...

)

I'd also try to hold the temperature for a slightly longer time in this case (expecting the pesi to be glued with damar). BTW, any signs of rust build-up where the pesi enters the hilt if you can get a peek?

Regards,
Kai

kai · 5th September 2010, 03:04 AM

Hello Shahrial,

Quote:

Thanks, point noted. It took me a while to identify it as rhino.. and it takes ages to convince friends.. When Michael Marlow (VVV), was in Singapore, we met at MAG, Adni was also skeptical but Kai Wee was somewhat convinced..

I'm certainly with you. Actually your pics are among the most convincing I have seen so far for SEA hilts claimed to be rhino horn - the diagnostic structure can well be seen at the "head/face" (next time turn the hilt or the digicam to avoid reflections of the flash at the pertinent area). Needless to say, most "suspect" hilts prove to be (often albino) water buffalo horn upon microscopic examination...

Regards,
Kai

imas560 · 5th September 2010, 07:08 AM

Hello all,
Today being Father's Day in N.Z. I was given a free allotment in the space time continuum to "go play with your blades". So have embarked on step 1 of cleaning up my newly acquired keris. I have confirmed the sororan area from the details picture at Paul's Keris page.
http://pachome1.pacific.net.sg/~dspf/details.jpg
The hilt is on very tight (no movement).
I setup with my candle and keris. I wrapped the handle with a bit of towel rag just in case flame/heat got too close as this is my first time.

I got the candle going and then played the flame along the sororan area.

I did encounter a slight problem, there were a couple of spots on the blade (nearer to the handle) where the flame was drawn to the blade and I had to move the blade away quickly.

I applied the candle heat until the blade got warm where I was holding it. The blade near the handle did get hotter than a warm to the touch level. I let it cool and then re-applied heat but not as long as the first attempt.
Two attempts was enough for today.
The handle had slightly freed up in a sideways direction but no perceptible movement in a direction away from the blade.

Alam Shah · 5th September 2010, 12:54 PM

Good effort imas560..

sometimes I use kitchen aluminium foil on the hilt.. better than a piece of cloth, which is a fire hazard, imho..

A. G. Maisey · 5th September 2010, 02:17 PM

I suggest that you grip the blade with your bare hand about halfway along its length.

I also suggest that you lose the cloth , it is entirely, absolutely, 100% not necessary, and is as Alam Shah says, a fire risk.

Grip the hilt with your bare hand; the hilt does not need any protection from anything, because the flame is not going to go anywhere near it, mainly because you are not going to burn your hand, are you?

Play the candle flame over the entire sorsoran area and alternate the sides of the blade that you heat.

You will feel the hilt becoming a little warm, and you will feel the blade becoming quite warm; when the blade is uncomfortable to hold in your bare hand, stop heating it.

The heat in the blade will continue to travel up the pesi.

Using a piece of old rag so that you can grip the blade without burning your hand or cutting it, grip the heated area firmly and gently try twisting the hilt, do not force it; as you twist you also need to exert a gentle force to pull it away from the blade, if you press your two thumbs together you can better control this force.

It only takes a few minutes for the blade to get too hot to hold, and it only takes a few more minutes for it to cool down, so you can repeat this procedure a few times.

If you don't move it during the first day's session, or second day's session, you just keep on trying until you do.

This is not a real old keris, and you should not have too much difficulty with it.

PenangsangII · 6th September 2010, 03:16 AM

Dear All,

i was away during the weekend, so was unable to reply a few entries "condemning" my favored method in removing stuck up keris hilts.

Like BigG said earlier, soaking in boiled water is the method prescribed in Malaysian keris community (i believe including Singapore). I'm surprised that Alam Shah didnt know about it, and only practised the so-called "professional" method, i.e heating method.

I dont know what "professional" really means here, but I guess it must have come from the current era mranggis and keris collectors. But boiling method is prescribed by the elders in Malaysian keris community. Malaysian keris culture has not evolve much since Majapahit/Malaka era, compare to Indonesian counterparts esp in Jawa. You can assume whatever I wanted to tell here.

its fine if anyone dosnt agree with the boiling method, but denigrating the practice of certain respected people in the keris community as "excessive" or "close to idiocy" is totally uncalled for.... totally out of the way of the keris... and by the person/s who doesnt/dont know the philosophy of the keris....

Its also fine if anyone treats keris as mere collection, but to me it much more. Its a way of life. and that's a very big difference.

Just like BigG had said earlier, the blade is EVERYTHING... and by putting the blade into "uncomfortable" situation, i.e. direct contact to flame, I can also call this practice "close to idiocy"... in the perspective of Malaysian keris community............ see, its actually from what perspective we look into things....

If heating method is a demonstrable fact, so is boiling method. I would like to ask, the so-called professional or very senior and knowledgable collectors ( i mean collectors... not a users...), have you tried using boiling method before calling it as unfrenly to keris care taking? I tried both ways before, that is why I stand by what I said earlier.

Rick · 6th September 2010, 03:43 AM

Very good then; we have different methods of removal; one may pick the method one likes .

Yes ?

There are many ways to skin a cat ; no ?

We'll move on now ....

A. G. Maisey · 6th September 2010, 04:21 AM

I thank you most sincerely for your further post , Penangsang.

I have learnt much from that which you have written.

I hope you will continue to provide such revealing information.

David · 6th September 2010, 06:09 AM

As Rick has pointed out, both these methods have been rather fully described and people (both collectors and "users" of keris) can now make an intelligent decision as to which method they believe will do the least possible damage to their keris. Personally i have tried and been fully successful with the heating method, but i have never tried the boiling water method. However, it is not necessary for me to whack my finger with a hammer to know that it will hurt and probably make my finger bleed.
It confuses me a bit that Penangang would consider a small candle flame on a blade an "uncomfortable situation" considering that the blade is born out of a forge fire much hotter than that. Of course, i am not a professional or even a very knowledgeable collector, but i actually do indeed use keris in my daily ritual practice. So i do not treat my keris as a "mere collection" either.
Penangang, you should also read Shahrial's post more carefully. He did not say that he was unaware of the boiling method. He said that indeed he was, but that he didn't use it himself and added that "Most of my fellow collectors here, do not subscribe to this treatment, as well, although we are aware of it".

PenangsangII · 6th September 2010, 07:37 AM

Thanks David for your further comments....

The "digdaya" or yoni of the keris is imbued after the completion of the keris, although the process may take as early as the empu doing his tapa brata before he actually hold his hammer..... imagine that someone you love, or care, suddenly you put him to fire or flame.... he is OK, he wont die because of the small fire, but if were him, I would decide to go..... some may even attempt to exact revenge in any possible manner. Most of us have the "keris tindih" to defuse this situation, but how about new collectors or even senior collectors who dont have in their possession the "ampuh" keris tindih or "pelapik". I tried to refrain discussing this subject earlier in the forum, as many forumers here dont believe in such a thing.

And I dont understand why do you have to speak up for Shahrial... yes I do understand what he was saying.... But to claim that one DID hear or know about "boiling method" than claimed DIDNOT know anybody who did it (whilst BigG rightfully wrote its generally acceptable in Malaysia & S'pore) is preposterous. Even when the hilt removal is handled by "tukang sarung" in the Peninsular, believe you me, big chances are, they would use the boiling method. I am not sure whether Shahrial is speaking on behalf of all collectors in S'pore or not, but the fact BigG mentioned its a normal practice in Singapore, reaffirms my belief it is a normal method in the Peninsular (Malaysia & Singapore)

In short, my advise on the hilt removal method is out of concern for the blade itself (after the heat exposure you'll have to clean the carbon smut on the blade surface, sometime painstakingly as i have learned before), and because of my concern to the yoni. There is no way my intention is to mislead fellow forumers, or cause unnecessary debate of wrong or right. Both can be wrong, and both can be right.

Jussi M. · 6th September 2010, 10:20 AM

Popcorn, anyone?

A. G. Maisey · 6th September 2010, 03:02 PM

Thank you again Penangsang for providing such a wonderful post for us.

I had determined that I was not going to involve myself any further in these exchanges, principally because of what I consider to be an insensitive approach to matters that really have no place in a public online Forum.However, I feel that Penangsang's most recent post does need to be addressed in order to clarify several matters for those amongst us who may not be quite so advanced in the spiritual aspects of the keris as Penangsang apparently considers himself to be.

For those of you who may be silently recoiling from the possibility that I intend to discuss the concept of yoni openly, please relax. I do not intend to open this matter to discussion, but merely to provide an understanding of the area into which we have ventured.

Penangsang has used two words that we usually only hear in a face to face situation where discussion is between close friends:- yoni, and digdaya.

Both of these words are Javanese. In this context the meaning of yoni refers to something having a magical power. The meaning of digdaya is for something to be invulnerable because of magical or supernatural power.

These words do not have the same meaning. In fact, they do not even have a similar meaning.

The power of yoni is transferable when the keris is correctly matched to its custodian, however digdaya is invulnerability that is possessed by virtue of magical or supernatural power. It may be that the tuah that has been generated by the yoni is a tuah that is capable of providing invulnerability, but very often the tuah of a keris has absolutely nothing at all to do with invulnerability, it could be concerned with profit in business, or ease of social relationships, or facility in attracting women, or any one of many other fortuitous powers.

The concept of yoni refers to an element, or factor that is the essence linking the maker of a keris with the tuah of a keris.Yoni is not a spirit nor a djin nor an identifiable thing, it is a power, or a mysterious force that fixes the tuah.

The tuah is essentially a talismanic power, and it cannot exist unless the custodian of the keris has belief that it does exist.Tuah is always a good and a positive force, but it can only exist where the keris is correctly matched to the custodian.

The strength of the yoni is linked in turn to the devoutness and the mystical knowledge of maker of the keris. Since such knowledge can only be possessed by an Mpu, this dictates that any keris which may be considered to possess yoni must be the product of an Mpu.

This theory, or hypothesis is a relatively recent one that has been popularised by an ahli keris from Solo, B.P.H. Sumodiningrat, a noble from the Karaton Surakarta.

Inherrent in this theory there is no suggestion that the tuah of a keris is directly linked to God, however there is the belief that by virtue of his devoutness and his fasting and meditation, the Mpu draws close to God.

The belief in the yoni of a keris is an element of the Javanese belief system that surrounds the keris and has its roots in Kejawen and the revival of Javanese culture which took place during the Kartosuro period. It is an attractive theory to those who are followers of Sufic mysticism, and by virtue of this the belief in the yoni theory has spread widely throughout keris bearing cultures in a very short period of time.

When we consider whether or not a keris may possess yoni there is one over-riding requirement that must be fulfilled before all others:- the keris must be the product of an Mpu. In other words the physical quality of the keris must be consistent with the product of an Mpu.

This is probably about as far as I am prepared to go in this matter.

As I have already commented, discussion of yoni is a very sensitive subject that should only be carried out in private in a face to face situation, and between trusted friends with similar levels of knowledge. It is not a subject for open or public discussion and must not be openly discussed with those who are not yet sufficiently mature to understand the implications.

What I have written above is what I have been taught. It may vary from the beliefs held by others, however, my teachers were located in Solo, and were of the same social group as the man who caused the concept of yoni to become popular.

David · 6th September 2010, 05:20 PM

Thank you Penang for bringing the subject of yoni to the forefront, even though i do fully understand and agree with Mr. Maisey that such discussions can only go so far in an open forum such as this. I have no concerns about the general discussion of spiritual matters in regards to keris however, even if some of our membership may not believe in these aspects, since it is in my mind intrinsic to the subject of the keris itself. I would also like to thank Mr. Maisey for his detailed, yet restained, paragraphs on the subject of yoni and digdaya. Very informative without going "too far" i think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

And I dont understand why do you have to speak up for Shahrial... yes I do understand what he was saying.... But to claim that one DID hear or know about "boiling method" than claimed DIDNOT know anybody who did it (whilst BigG rightfully wrote its generally acceptable in Malaysia & S'pore) is preposterous.

Now, in regards to what you have written above, the obvious answer is because even after a second reading (i can only assume that you read Shahrial's remarks again when i pointed you to them) you still don't seem to have fully understood them. Please read them one more time since he did NOT claim that he didn't know anybody who uses the boiling method. What he DID write was that MOST of his fellow collectors do not use this method. This very clearly implies that SOME of them, how ever few, indeed DO use that method. I am making a special point of this only because i believe it is absolutely imperative that we ALL carefully read the comments of our fellow members before we respond to them, especially if we are to call those comments "preposterous". That is just common respect.

Henk · 6th September 2010, 08:30 PM

Thank you Alan, for giving us a view in the spirit world of keris. The way you explained it, makes it for me, and i hope other forum members, very understandable. Talking about this subject should be face tot face indeed and is very personal. But we all know about the existing of this subject and the spirit world of keris.

Forgive my ingnorance and i have no intention to offend anybody, but, as Penangsang stated,
imagine that someone you love, or care, suddenly you put him to fire or flame.... he is OK, he wont die because of the small fire, but if were him, I would decide to go..... some may even attempt to exact revenge in any possible manner.
Is putting a beloved one in boiling water less cruel? I'm sure when i do that, he or she won't be smiling to me either.

And to talk about the material, boiling water will give more damage to the hilt.
I used the method once on a keris given to me by a friend. A madura keris with a wooden Solo ukiran, glued to the pesi. I wanted to exchange the wooden Solo ukiran for an old bone Madura ukiran, so i used boiling water.
The Solo ukiran became worthless. The wood cracked and the lacquer became grey and got loose from the wood. A waste of a re-usable Solo ukiran. Here in Europe replacing a keris dress is very hard. That's, I think, the most important reason we prefer to preserve and restore the dress of a keris.

David · 6th September 2010, 11:21 PM

It should also be pointed out that this keris of Imas is almost certainly not an mpu made blade and therefore has no yoni to be concerned with. I dare say the the vast majority of keris in our collections also are not mpu made.
I also agree with Henk that immersing the hilt in boiling water subjects the blade to a very similar discomfort that applying a candle flame to it will. Seems 6 of one and half a dozen of another as far as the blade is concerned.

A. G. Maisey · 6th September 2010, 11:51 PM

There is probably one other thing that I should mention while I'm on this subject, and that is the idea of "isi".

The word isi in Javanese means contents, or insides, or to be filled with. Its a pretty useful word, and it is not restricted to keris usage. For instance , if you're using the toilet, and somebody tries to open the door, you just yell "ISI!" and they go away.

Isi is not a mystical word.

But when we use it in reference to a keris it does refer to a mystical element. An element that beginners and children often confuse with the concept of tuah.This is understandable, because both tuah and isi are ideas about a mystical force within the keris.

Unlike tuah, isi can exist in any keris. It does not come from the Mpu, as tuah does. It might be inherent in the iron before the keris is even made, it might be due to an occurrence during forging, it might be caused by some event during its life, it might be purposely introduced by magical practice. Isi can enter a keris from a multitude of sources.

Again, unlike tuah, it is not always a positive power, but can also be negative, and unlike tuah it is not selective in whom it affects.

Isi is a universal force that in fact has no form, but it usually assumes the form of something either terrible or good, to permit it to be perceived by a person.

However, even if a keris does have isi, no matter how powerful that isi may be, it will not necessarily affect everybody. If a person has sufficient spiritual or mystical strength of the right type, isi will not affect that person. Isi should never have any effect upon an Mpu, a pandai keris, a mranggi, or a devout person. Isi can affect a person who is weak, or who is incomplete. Such a person can sometimes gain the strength to resist isi by meditation, fasting, and prayer.

So, here we have the difference between the two mystical elements that can exist in a keris.

There is the tuah, that is purposely brought into the blade by the Mpu who made it, and the tuah is fixed in place by the power of the yoni.

Then there is the isi, which is not brought into the blade by the Mpu, and is not fixed in place by the yoni.

The tuah is invariably positive, but requires the keris to be matched to the right custodian, and that custodian must believe that the tuah is present and active on his behalf.

The isi is a natural, or an accidental or an intentional placement of a mystical power into the keris.

The isi is not necessarily a positive force, but can also be distinctly evil, it is not selective in its effects but can affect anybody lacking the spiritual power to resist it.

Tuah can exist in any keris that has been made correctly to incorporate this talismanic power, however the yoni can only exist in a keris that has been made by an Mpu to contain tuah, and the power of this tuah is fixed by the yoni.

Isi can exist in any keris.

Kai, in light of the above, I feel that perhaps you may already have the answer to your question, however, if it is not yet clear, please let me proceed.

The keris as a whole is a personality. It may or may not contain tuah, and it may or may not contain isi. But the keris is only a personality if it is believed to be so by the custodian.

If the custodian is correctly matched to the keris, and believes that the tuah is active on his behalf, every action he takes involving that keris will be a positive action from the perspective of the keris, and the tuah will remain with the keris and with the custodian of the keris as long as it is believed in.

However, isi is not so controllable, nor predictable. Isi may or may not like the heat of a candle flame. But isi may or may not like a million other things as well, and there is no way to know what that isi may find objectionable or pleasant except by the practice of tayuh, or mystical divination, usually through dreaming.

However, if we disturb the isi, we may find out too late that something we did caused that isi to become a little uncomfortable.Then we may have to pay.

In the whole of this element of the belief system there is also the human element.

If the custodian of the keris believes in tuah it is real, but selective.

If the custodian of the keris believes in isi, it is real, but non-selective.

Where the custodian of a keris has some doubt about his spiritual ability to resist the force of a possible isi, then he is well advised to entrust any work to be done on his keris to a person who does possess this spiritual ability. This is the role of the mranggi.

All of the above is as I have been taught, and is only a repetition of those teachings.

Nothing here necessarily represents my personal opinions.

Rick · 7th September 2010, 01:52 AM

That is interesting, especially concerning our conversations about the weather here of late, Alan .

PenangsangII · 7th September 2010, 02:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henk

Thank you Alan, for giving us a view in the spirit world of keris. The way you explained it, makes it for me, and i hope other forum members, very understandable. Talking about this subject should be face tot face indeed and is very personal. But we all know about the existing of this subject and the spirit world of keris.

Forgive my ingnorance and i have no intention to offend anybody, but, as Penangsang stated,
imagine that someone you love, or care, suddenly you put him to fire or flame.... he is OK, he wont die because of the small fire, but if were him, I would decide to go..... some may even attempt to exact revenge in any possible manner.
Is putting a beloved one in boiling water less cruel? I'm sure when i do that, he or she won't be smiling to me either.

And to talk about the material, boiling water will give more damage to the hilt.
I used the method once on a keris given to me by a friend. A madura keris with a wooden Solo ukiran, glued to the pesi. I wanted to exchange the wooden Solo ukiran for an old bone Madura ukiran, so i used boiling water.
The Solo ukiran became worthless. The wood cracked and the lacquer became grey and got loose from the wood. A waste of a re-usable Solo ukiran. Here in Europe replacing a keris dress is very hard. That's, I think, the most important reason we prefer to preserve and restore the dress of a keris.

Henk,

It is the Jejeran that is exposed to the boiled water. Compare that with direct flame to the blade????

and Alan is right, the discussion about digdaya or yoni or anything about keris spiritualism should be done in personal manner. Or if anyone wish to continue the discussion, please feel free to create another thread. I agree to to most of Alan posts re mysticism, the meaning of yoni, but beg to differ about digdaya. I will not continue the discussion here, nor open another thread on keris spiritualism, but I promise whenever possible I will give my comments accordingly if anyone starts the thread.

Thank you, it has been enlightening experience here in this thread.

David · 7th September 2010, 03:16 AM

Thank you Alan for clearing up this terminology in a clear and concise manner. This has been a very informative thread indeed.

PenangsangII · 7th September 2010, 03:16 AM

and yes, Alan's last post prettily summed up everything about keris spiritualism/mysticism. Very good general overview, thus my advice to be cautious all the times on how to treat one's keris.

For those who believe and practice keris bearing as a "package" or those who have experience in this matter, my concerns does not apply.

I am concerned to those do not believe, or do not have the knowledge in handling keris as a package, thus suffer in later days (not necessarily him the keris bearer, it could be the surrounding people that he cares about, or later generations.

imas560 · 10th September 2010, 03:57 AM

Hello all,
Just an update for the 5th day. Have dispensed with rag and went for ali foil (thanks Alam Shah).
Have managed to heat most days. Discernible movement around blade axis but no movement away from the blade.

A. G. Maisey · 10th September 2010, 04:33 AM

Imas, could you please describe exactly how you are carrying out this procedure?

Where do you grip the blade?

How hot do you get the blade? If this has been glued in place with an epoxy resin like Araldite, you are going to have to get the tang to above 100C before the bond will be weak enough to pull apart. Araldite begins to soften at about 60C, but you need to get it to probably around 120C before you have a very weak bond. If it held with jabung, it does not need to get quite as hot; jabung is made from a natural resin and wax, once the wax content starts to soften the bond weakens.Shellac has a slightly higher melt point If it is held by tension on cloth, or hair, the tang needs to get hot enough to cause the material to start to smolder

How long do you heat and twist/pull at each heating attempt? When I have a difficult hilt I usually work at it for about 15-20 minutes at a time.

Do you alternate the sides of the blade to which you are applying heat?

I note that you have opted to use aluminium foil. Can you feel the hilt warming through the foil?

How much pressure do you apply when you try to pull the hilt away from the blade?

A keris of this age and type should not be at all difficult to remove the hilt. Five days is the sort of effort that is required from an ivory hilt that the tang has rusted into.

imas560 · 10th September 2010, 03:01 PM

Hello Mr. Maisey,
to try and separate the hilt from blade I grip the blade approx 1 hand width down the blade, enough space that with my right hand I am hard up against the edge of the hilt with thumbs almost fully extended.
I alternate the 2 sides of the blade heating, approx 3 fingers length (50mm/2") along the sororan area closest to the hilt. I only heat for as long as it takes the blade to warm my left hand on the blade.
I generally heat and cool for a maximum of 10 minutes at a time.
I don't feel much heat coming through the foil. I find that when my left hand is warm the sororan area closest to the hilt is getting almost too hot to comfortably touch.
I'm not using too much pressure, am using the guideline from one of the posts of using the strength of the thumbs alone to dictate the force. Am using mainly wrist strength for sideways movement (i.e. no forearm strength).
I'm using a gradual increase in force (i.e. no abrupt wrenching/application of torque).
I have noticed an almost burnt tobacco smell that still lingers long after the blade has cooled.

A. G. Maisey · 10th September 2010, 11:57 PM

Thanks for that Imas.

I suspect that you are not getting the blade nearly hot enough.

I suggest that you hold the blade with your bare hand about halfway along the blade; when the blade gets too hot to hold, stop heating. By "too hot to hold", I mean that if you hold it any longer you're probably going to finish up with a sore hand. You do not stop heating when the blade only gets warm. If a blade is fixed with either jabung or shellac, the level of heat required will cause the jabung or shellac to bubble from around the base of the hilt, or mendak if one is fitted.

When you grip the blade to work the hilt back and forth and to press it off the blade with thumb pressure, you need to use a lump of old rag to grip the blade, if you do not, you will burn your hand, or cut it. It is possible to exert quite a lot of force by pushing your thumbs together, so if this is how you are doing it, the force should be sufficient.

If you feel that your hands are perhaps not strong enough, you can use folded newspaper to protect the blade, and clamp it into a vice. By "folded newspaper" I do not mean one or two sheets, I mean half an inch or so of tightly compacted paper on each side of the blade.

Ten minutes may or may not be long enough, you need to judge the heat by feeling it, and I've told you how to do that. The time is not critical. The regimen of repeated heating and cooling over a period of days is only resorted to with a hilt that is very difficult to remove, and we normally only find these on quite old keris. The most difficult hilts I have had to work with were ivory on old Sumatra keris. These were all very difficult and took a long time to release. Jawa and Madura hilts I have never encountered any real problems with, they normally let go at the first attempt.

If I were doing this hilt of yours, I would not use foil, however, if you feel that it gives you more confidence to use, by all means do so, however, I suggest that you limit the foil cover to only the bottom part of the hilt, so that your bare hand will grip the bare wood, and you can feel the heat through it. This is a small hilt, you do not want it to get too hot, you cannot feel how hot it gets if you cover it.

To return to the subject of heat.
When we heat treat steel to harden it, we take the temperature to a cherry red, this equates to around 700degrees centigrade. That is hot. It will burn right through your skin and flesh. When the steel is hot we cool it suddenly by plunging into oil or water. After this the steel is hard, but it will break easily, so to make it able to be used we draw some of the hardness out of it. To do this we gently heat the steel again until it shows a colour on the polished surface of straw or blue, or what ever colour we need for the purpose that the blade will be put to. You can see this colour change effect if you sharpen a chisel on a grind stone, if the chisel edge starts to go blue you'd better dip it in water immediately, or you'll have a soft chisel.

OK, so you can see that to get steel hot enough to make it soft, you've got to get it very hot. To get a blade hot enough to make it soft you need to leave it sitting in a working fire for a length of time. It is totally impossible to make steel hot enough to soften it in even the slightest degree with a candle.

Additionally, a keris blade is usually only hardened at most up to about three quarters of its length, it is not usually hardened at all in the area of the sorsoran.

A keris blade is made of iron and steel, the steel is a thin wafer inserted between two layers of iron, even if you get the outside of the blade very hot, the steel core of the blade will not be as hot as the outside of the blade. Steel contains carbon and that allows it to be hardened. Iron does not contain carbon, and cannot be hardened. You can heat iron all day long, plunge it into water, and it will still be soft.

It is impossible for you to do any damage at all to your blade by heating it with a candle.

imas560 · 11th September 2010, 12:35 AM

Hello Mr. Maisey,
I appreciate the advice and your taking the time to step me through the process.
I'll shorten up the ali foil on the hilt (was using it to protect the hilt from any damage I might inadvertently do with the candle flame).
I'll let the candle play longer on the blade to build up the heat so I can feel the heat with the hand I hold the hilt with.
Am finding the project very interesting and appreciate everyone's input/pointers.

A. G. Maisey · 11th September 2010, 01:41 AM

Imas, you will find that once you've done this two or three times its very, very easy, and this drawn out experience you're having at the moment will be like a bad memory.

The hand that holds the hilt will tell you if it is getting too hot.

The hand that holds the blade will tell you if it is not hot enough.

imas560 · 16th September 2010, 06:08 AM

Hello,
bit the bullet today and after heating up the sorsoran area used a bit more force with a semi corkscrew action and the handle came off.
Was tightly attached with yarn and rag.
Before proceeding to the de-greasing stage I have a couple of questions:
Best way to remove the yarn and rag?
Can the yarn and rag be reused?
Would dearly like to keep the keris with it's components I received it with as much as possible
Many thanks

A. G. Maisey · 16th September 2010, 08:42 AM

Just pull it off and throw it away. Its rubbish.

When you refit the hilt you will use knitting wool.

imas560 · 16th September 2010, 10:54 AM

Thanks Mr. Maisey.
Next step is the degrease which hopefully will happen this weekend.
Also have started inquiries about obtainability of arsenic.

5th September 2010, 07:08 AM	#64
imas560 Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 180	Step 1: Hilt Removal Hello all, Today being Father's Day in N.Z. I was given a free allotment in the space time continuum to "go play with your blades". So have embarked on step 1 of cleaning up my newly acquired keris. I have confirmed the sororan area from the details picture at Paul's Keris page. http://pachome1.pacific.net.sg/~dspf/details.jpg The hilt is on very tight (no movement). I setup with my candle and keris. I wrapped the handle with a bit of towel rag just in case flame/heat got too close as this is my first time. I got the candle going and then played the flame along the sororan area. I did encounter a slight problem, there were a couple of spots on the blade (nearer to the handle) where the flame was drawn to the blade and I had to move the blade away quickly. I applied the candle heat until the blade got warm where I was holding it. The blade near the handle did get hotter than a warm to the touch level. I let it cool and then re-applied heat but not as long as the first attempt. Two attempts was enough for today. The handle had slightly freed up in a sideways direction but no perceptible movement in a direction away from the blade.

6th September 2010, 10:20 AM	#72
Jussi M. Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 235	Popcorn, anyone? Last edited by David; 6th September 2010 at 05:21 PM.

16th September 2010, 06:08 AM	#88
imas560 Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 180	Hilt removed Hello, bit the bullet today and after heating up the sorsoran area used a bit more force with a semi corkscrew action and the handle came off. Was tightly attached with yarn and rag. Before proceeding to the de-greasing stage I have a couple of questions: Best way to remove the yarn and rag? Can the yarn and rag be reused? Would dearly like to keep the keris with it's components I received it with as much as possible Many thanks

4th September 2010, 09:09 PM	#61
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	That can often be the question, Alam Shah:- conserve or restore? Sometimes it may be more wise to leave the problem for somebody else to fix in another 50 years or so. Regarding your friend's pesi that broke. It is entirely possible that it had rusted through in any case. If you could see the white of un-rusted steel in the separation, OK, it broke. But if you could not, it was possibly rusted through. As long as there is some part of the pesi left it is easy to repair, and the shortened or more slender pesi is only evidence of age.This is a standard, expected part of maintenance in Jawa. Even when the pesi is completely broken off and no part of it is left, it can be repaired, although at that point the blade has lost its integrity.

5th September 2010, 12:54 PM	#65
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Good effort imas560.. sometimes I use kitchen aluminium foil on the hilt.. better than a piece of cloth, which is a fire hazard, imho..

5th September 2010, 02:17 PM	#66
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	I suggest that you grip the blade with your bare hand about halfway along its length. I also suggest that you lose the cloth , it is entirely, absolutely, 100% not necessary, and is as Alam Shah says, a fire risk. Grip the hilt with your bare hand; the hilt does not need any protection from anything, because the flame is not going to go anywhere near it, mainly because you are not going to burn your hand, are you? Play the candle flame over the entire sorsoran area and alternate the sides of the blade that you heat. You will feel the hilt becoming a little warm, and you will feel the blade becoming quite warm; when the blade is uncomfortable to hold in your bare hand, stop heating it. The heat in the blade will continue to travel up the pesi. Using a piece of old rag so that you can grip the blade without burning your hand or cutting it, grip the heated area firmly and gently try twisting the hilt, do not force it; as you twist you also need to exert a gentle force to pull it away from the blade, if you press your two thumbs together you can better control this force. It only takes a few minutes for the blade to get too hot to hold, and it only takes a few more minutes for it to cool down, so you can repeat this procedure a few times. If you don't move it during the first day's session, or second day's session, you just keep on trying until you do. This is not a real old keris, and you should not have too much difficulty with it.

6th September 2010, 03:16 AM	#67
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Dear All, i was away during the weekend, so was unable to reply a few entries "condemning" my favored method in removing stuck up keris hilts. Like BigG said earlier, soaking in boiled water is the method prescribed in Malaysian keris community (i believe including Singapore). I'm surprised that Alam Shah didnt know about it, and only practised the so-called "professional" method, i.e heating method. I dont know what "professional" really means here, but I guess it must have come from the current era mranggis and keris collectors. But boiling method is prescribed by the elders in Malaysian keris community. Malaysian keris culture has not evolve much since Majapahit/Malaka era, compare to Indonesian counterparts esp in Jawa. You can assume whatever I wanted to tell here. its fine if anyone dosnt agree with the boiling method, but denigrating the practice of certain respected people in the keris community as "excessive" or "close to idiocy" is totally uncalled for.... totally out of the way of the keris... and by the person/s who doesnt/dont know the philosophy of the keris.... Its also fine if anyone treats keris as mere collection, but to me it much more. Its a way of life. and that's a very big difference. Just like BigG had said earlier, the blade is EVERYTHING... and by putting the blade into "uncomfortable" situation, i.e. direct contact to flame, I can also call this practice "close to idiocy"... in the perspective of Malaysian keris community............ see, its actually from what perspective we look into things.... If heating method is a demonstrable fact, so is boiling method. I would like to ask, the so-called professional or very senior and knowledgable collectors ( i mean collectors... not a users...), have you tried using boiling method before calling it as unfrenly to keris care taking? I tried both ways before, that is why I stand by what I said earlier.

6th September 2010, 03:43 AM	#68
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Very good then; we have different methods of removal; one may pick the method one likes . Yes ? There are many ways to skin a cat ; no ? We'll move on now ....

6th September 2010, 04:21 AM	#69
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	I thank you most sincerely for your further post , Penangsang. I have learnt much from that which you have written. I hope you will continue to provide such revealing information.

6th September 2010, 06:09 AM	#70
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,023	As Rick has pointed out, both these methods have been rather fully described and people (both collectors and "users" of keris) can now make an intelligent decision as to which method they believe will do the least possible damage to their keris. Personally i have tried and been fully successful with the heating method, but i have never tried the boiling water method. However, it is not necessary for me to whack my finger with a hammer to know that it will hurt and probably make my finger bleed. It confuses me a bit that Penangang would consider a small candle flame on a blade an "uncomfortable situation" considering that the blade is born out of a forge fire much hotter than that. Of course, i am not a professional or even a very knowledgeable collector, but i actually do indeed use keris in my daily ritual practice. So i do not treat my keris as a "mere collection" either. Penangang, you should also read Shahrial's post more carefully. He did not say that he was unaware of the boiling method. He said that indeed he was, but that he didn't use it himself and added that "Most of my fellow collectors here, do not subscribe to this treatment, as well, although we are aware of it".

6th September 2010, 07:37 AM	#71
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Thanks David for your further comments.... The "digdaya" or yoni of the keris is imbued after the completion of the keris, although the process may take as early as the empu doing his tapa brata before he actually hold his hammer..... imagine that someone you love, or care, suddenly you put him to fire or flame.... he is OK, he wont die because of the small fire, but if were him, I would decide to go..... some may even attempt to exact revenge in any possible manner. Most of us have the "keris tindih" to defuse this situation, but how about new collectors or even senior collectors who dont have in their possession the "ampuh" keris tindih or "pelapik". I tried to refrain discussing this subject earlier in the forum, as many forumers here dont believe in such a thing. And I dont understand why do you have to speak up for Shahrial... yes I do understand what he was saying.... But to claim that one DID hear or know about "boiling method" than claimed DIDNOT know anybody who did it (whilst BigG rightfully wrote its generally acceptable in Malaysia & S'pore) is preposterous. Even when the hilt removal is handled by "tukang sarung" in the Peninsular, believe you me, big chances are, they would use the boiling method. I am not sure whether Shahrial is speaking on behalf of all collectors in S'pore or not, but the fact BigG mentioned its a normal practice in Singapore, reaffirms my belief it is a normal method in the Peninsular (Malaysia & Singapore) In short, my advise on the hilt removal method is out of concern for the blade itself (after the heat exposure you'll have to clean the carbon smut on the blade surface, sometime painstakingly as i have learned before), and because of my concern to the yoni. There is no way my intention is to mislead fellow forumers, or cause unnecessary debate of wrong or right. Both can be wrong, and both can be right.

6th September 2010, 03:02 PM	#73
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	Thank you again Penangsang for providing such a wonderful post for us. I had determined that I was not going to involve myself any further in these exchanges, principally because of what I consider to be an insensitive approach to matters that really have no place in a public online Forum.However, I feel that Penangsang's most recent post does need to be addressed in order to clarify several matters for those amongst us who may not be quite so advanced in the spiritual aspects of the keris as Penangsang apparently considers himself to be. For those of you who may be silently recoiling from the possibility that I intend to discuss the concept of yoni openly, please relax. I do not intend to open this matter to discussion, but merely to provide an understanding of the area into which we have ventured. Penangsang has used two words that we usually only hear in a face to face situation where discussion is between close friends:- yoni, and digdaya. Both of these words are Javanese. In this context the meaning of yoni refers to something having a magical power. The meaning of digdaya is for something to be invulnerable because of magical or supernatural power. These words do not have the same meaning. In fact, they do not even have a similar meaning. The power of yoni is transferable when the keris is correctly matched to its custodian, however digdaya is invulnerability that is possessed by virtue of magical or supernatural power. It may be that the tuah that has been generated by the yoni is a tuah that is capable of providing invulnerability, but very often the tuah of a keris has absolutely nothing at all to do with invulnerability, it could be concerned with profit in business, or ease of social relationships, or facility in attracting women, or any one of many other fortuitous powers. The concept of yoni refers to an element, or factor that is the essence linking the maker of a keris with the tuah of a keris.Yoni is not a spirit nor a djin nor an identifiable thing, it is a power, or a mysterious force that fixes the tuah. The tuah is essentially a talismanic power, and it cannot exist unless the custodian of the keris has belief that it does exist.Tuah is always a good and a positive force, but it can only exist where the keris is correctly matched to the custodian. The strength of the yoni is linked in turn to the devoutness and the mystical knowledge of maker of the keris. Since such knowledge can only be possessed by an Mpu, this dictates that any keris which may be considered to possess yoni must be the product of an Mpu. This theory, or hypothesis is a relatively recent one that has been popularised by an ahli keris from Solo, B.P.H. Sumodiningrat, a noble from the Karaton Surakarta. Inherrent in this theory there is no suggestion that the tuah of a keris is directly linked to God, however there is the belief that by virtue of his devoutness and his fasting and meditation, the Mpu draws close to God. The belief in the yoni of a keris is an element of the Javanese belief system that surrounds the keris and has its roots in Kejawen and the revival of Javanese culture which took place during the Kartosuro period. It is an attractive theory to those who are followers of Sufic mysticism, and by virtue of this the belief in the yoni theory has spread widely throughout keris bearing cultures in a very short period of time. When we consider whether or not a keris may possess yoni there is one over-riding requirement that must be fulfilled before all others:- the keris must be the product of an Mpu. In other words the physical quality of the keris must be consistent with the product of an Mpu. This is probably about as far as I am prepared to go in this matter. As I have already commented, discussion of yoni is a very sensitive subject that should only be carried out in private in a face to face situation, and between trusted friends with similar levels of knowledge. It is not a subject for open or public discussion and must not be openly discussed with those who are not yet sufficiently mature to understand the implications. What I have written above is what I have been taught. It may vary from the beliefs held by others, however, my teachers were located in Solo, and were of the same social group as the man who caused the concept of yoni to become popular.

6th September 2010, 08:30 PM	#75
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Thank you Alan, for giving us a view in the spirit world of keris. The way you explained it, makes it for me, and i hope other forum members, very understandable. Talking about this subject should be face tot face indeed and is very personal. But we all know about the existing of this subject and the spirit world of keris. Forgive my ingnorance and i have no intention to offend anybody, but, as Penangsang stated, imagine that someone you love, or care, suddenly you put him to fire or flame.... he is OK, he wont die because of the small fire, but if were him, I would decide to go..... some may even attempt to exact revenge in any possible manner. Is putting a beloved one in boiling water less cruel? I'm sure when i do that, he or she won't be smiling to me either. And to talk about the material, boiling water will give more damage to the hilt. I used the method once on a keris given to me by a friend. A madura keris with a wooden Solo ukiran, glued to the pesi. I wanted to exchange the wooden Solo ukiran for an old bone Madura ukiran, so i used boiling water. The Solo ukiran became worthless. The wood cracked and the lacquer became grey and got loose from the wood. A waste of a re-usable Solo ukiran. Here in Europe replacing a keris dress is very hard. That's, I think, the most important reason we prefer to preserve and restore the dress of a keris.

6th September 2010, 11:21 PM	#76
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,023	It should also be pointed out that this keris of Imas is almost certainly not an mpu made blade and therefore has no yoni to be concerned with. I dare say the the vast majority of keris in our collections also are not mpu made. I also agree with Henk that immersing the hilt in boiling water subjects the blade to a very similar discomfort that applying a candle flame to it will. Seems 6 of one and half a dozen of another as far as the blade is concerned.

6th September 2010, 11:51 PM	#77
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	There is probably one other thing that I should mention while I'm on this subject, and that is the idea of "isi". The word isi in Javanese means contents, or insides, or to be filled with. Its a pretty useful word, and it is not restricted to keris usage. For instance , if you're using the toilet, and somebody tries to open the door, you just yell "ISI!" and they go away. Isi is not a mystical word. But when we use it in reference to a keris it does refer to a mystical element. An element that beginners and children often confuse with the concept of tuah.This is understandable, because both tuah and isi are ideas about a mystical force within the keris. Unlike tuah, isi can exist in any keris. It does not come from the Mpu, as tuah does. It might be inherent in the iron before the keris is even made, it might be due to an occurrence during forging, it might be caused by some event during its life, it might be purposely introduced by magical practice. Isi can enter a keris from a multitude of sources. Again, unlike tuah, it is not always a positive power, but can also be negative, and unlike tuah it is not selective in whom it affects. Isi is a universal force that in fact has no form, but it usually assumes the form of something either terrible or good, to permit it to be perceived by a person. However, even if a keris does have isi, no matter how powerful that isi may be, it will not necessarily affect everybody. If a person has sufficient spiritual or mystical strength of the right type, isi will not affect that person. Isi should never have any effect upon an Mpu, a pandai keris, a mranggi, or a devout person. Isi can affect a person who is weak, or who is incomplete. Such a person can sometimes gain the strength to resist isi by meditation, fasting, and prayer. So, here we have the difference between the two mystical elements that can exist in a keris. There is the tuah, that is purposely brought into the blade by the Mpu who made it, and the tuah is fixed in place by the power of the yoni. Then there is the isi, which is not brought into the blade by the Mpu, and is not fixed in place by the yoni. The tuah is invariably positive, but requires the keris to be matched to the right custodian, and that custodian must believe that the tuah is present and active on his behalf. The isi is a natural, or an accidental or an intentional placement of a mystical power into the keris. The isi is not necessarily a positive force, but can also be distinctly evil, it is not selective in its effects but can affect anybody lacking the spiritual power to resist it. Tuah can exist in any keris that has been made correctly to incorporate this talismanic power, however the yoni can only exist in a keris that has been made by an Mpu to contain tuah, and the power of this tuah is fixed by the yoni. Isi can exist in any keris. Kai, in light of the above, I feel that perhaps you may already have the answer to your question, however, if it is not yet clear, please let me proceed. The keris as a whole is a personality. It may or may not contain tuah, and it may or may not contain isi. But the keris is only a personality if it is believed to be so by the custodian. If the custodian is correctly matched to the keris, and believes that the tuah is active on his behalf, every action he takes involving that keris will be a positive action from the perspective of the keris, and the tuah will remain with the keris and with the custodian of the keris as long as it is believed in. However, isi is not so controllable, nor predictable. Isi may or may not like the heat of a candle flame. But isi may or may not like a million other things as well, and there is no way to know what that isi may find objectionable or pleasant except by the practice of tayuh, or mystical divination, usually through dreaming. However, if we disturb the isi, we may find out too late that something we did caused that isi to become a little uncomfortable.Then we may have to pay. In the whole of this element of the belief system there is also the human element. If the custodian of the keris believes in tuah it is real, but selective. If the custodian of the keris believes in isi, it is real, but non-selective. Where the custodian of a keris has some doubt about his spiritual ability to resist the force of a possible isi, then he is well advised to entrust any work to be done on his keris to a person who does possess this spiritual ability. This is the role of the mranggi. All of the above is as I have been taught, and is only a repetition of those teachings. Nothing here necessarily represents my personal opinions.

7th September 2010, 01:52 AM	#78
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	That is interesting, especially concerning our conversations about the weather here of late, Alan .

7th September 2010, 03:16 AM	#80
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,023	Thank you Alan for clearing up this terminology in a clear and concise manner. This has been a very informative thread indeed.

10th September 2010, 03:57 AM	#82
imas560 Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 180	Hello all, Just an update for the 5th day. Have dispensed with rag and went for ali foil (thanks Alam Shah). Have managed to heat most days. Discernible movement around blade axis but no movement away from the blade.

10th September 2010, 04:33 AM	#83
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	Imas, could you please describe exactly how you are carrying out this procedure? Where do you grip the blade? How hot do you get the blade? If this has been glued in place with an epoxy resin like Araldite, you are going to have to get the tang to above 100C before the bond will be weak enough to pull apart. Araldite begins to soften at about 60C, but you need to get it to probably around 120C before you have a very weak bond. If it held with jabung, it does not need to get quite as hot; jabung is made from a natural resin and wax, once the wax content starts to soften the bond weakens.Shellac has a slightly higher melt point If it is held by tension on cloth, or hair, the tang needs to get hot enough to cause the material to start to smolder How long do you heat and twist/pull at each heating attempt? When I have a difficult hilt I usually work at it for about 15-20 minutes at a time. Do you alternate the sides of the blade to which you are applying heat? I note that you have opted to use aluminium foil. Can you feel the hilt warming through the foil? How much pressure do you apply when you try to pull the hilt away from the blade? A keris of this age and type should not be at all difficult to remove the hilt. Five days is the sort of effort that is required from an ivory hilt that the tang has rusted into.

10th September 2010, 03:01 PM	#84
imas560 Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 180	Hello Mr. Maisey, to try and separate the hilt from blade I grip the blade approx 1 hand width down the blade, enough space that with my right hand I am hard up against the edge of the hilt with thumbs almost fully extended. I alternate the 2 sides of the blade heating, approx 3 fingers length (50mm/2") along the sororan area closest to the hilt. I only heat for as long as it takes the blade to warm my left hand on the blade. I generally heat and cool for a maximum of 10 minutes at a time. I don't feel much heat coming through the foil. I find that when my left hand is warm the sororan area closest to the hilt is getting almost too hot to comfortably touch. I'm not using too much pressure, am using the guideline from one of the posts of using the strength of the thumbs alone to dictate the force. Am using mainly wrist strength for sideways movement (i.e. no forearm strength). I'm using a gradual increase in force (i.e. no abrupt wrenching/application of torque). I have noticed an almost burnt tobacco smell that still lingers long after the blade has cooled.

10th September 2010, 11:57 PM	#85
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	Thanks for that Imas. I suspect that you are not getting the blade nearly hot enough. I suggest that you hold the blade with your bare hand about halfway along the blade; when the blade gets too hot to hold, stop heating. By "too hot to hold", I mean that if you hold it any longer you're probably going to finish up with a sore hand. You do not stop heating when the blade only gets warm. If a blade is fixed with either jabung or shellac, the level of heat required will cause the jabung or shellac to bubble from around the base of the hilt, or mendak if one is fitted. When you grip the blade to work the hilt back and forth and to press it off the blade with thumb pressure, you need to use a lump of old rag to grip the blade, if you do not, you will burn your hand, or cut it. It is possible to exert quite a lot of force by pushing your thumbs together, so if this is how you are doing it, the force should be sufficient. If you feel that your hands are perhaps not strong enough, you can use folded newspaper to protect the blade, and clamp it into a vice. By "folded newspaper" I do not mean one or two sheets, I mean half an inch or so of tightly compacted paper on each side of the blade. Ten minutes may or may not be long enough, you need to judge the heat by feeling it, and I've told you how to do that. The time is not critical. The regimen of repeated heating and cooling over a period of days is only resorted to with a hilt that is very difficult to remove, and we normally only find these on quite old keris. The most difficult hilts I have had to work with were ivory on old Sumatra keris. These were all very difficult and took a long time to release. Jawa and Madura hilts I have never encountered any real problems with, they normally let go at the first attempt. If I were doing this hilt of yours, I would not use foil, however, if you feel that it gives you more confidence to use, by all means do so, however, I suggest that you limit the foil cover to only the bottom part of the hilt, so that your bare hand will grip the bare wood, and you can feel the heat through it. This is a small hilt, you do not want it to get too hot, you cannot feel how hot it gets if you cover it. To return to the subject of heat. When we heat treat steel to harden it, we take the temperature to a cherry red, this equates to around 700degrees centigrade. That is hot. It will burn right through your skin and flesh. When the steel is hot we cool it suddenly by plunging into oil or water. After this the steel is hard, but it will break easily, so to make it able to be used we draw some of the hardness out of it. To do this we gently heat the steel again until it shows a colour on the polished surface of straw or blue, or what ever colour we need for the purpose that the blade will be put to. You can see this colour change effect if you sharpen a chisel on a grind stone, if the chisel edge starts to go blue you'd better dip it in water immediately, or you'll have a soft chisel. OK, so you can see that to get steel hot enough to make it soft, you've got to get it very hot. To get a blade hot enough to make it soft you need to leave it sitting in a working fire for a length of time. It is totally impossible to make steel hot enough to soften it in even the slightest degree with a candle. Additionally, a keris blade is usually only hardened at most up to about three quarters of its length, it is not usually hardened at all in the area of the sorsoran. A keris blade is made of iron and steel, the steel is a thin wafer inserted between two layers of iron, even if you get the outside of the blade very hot, the steel core of the blade will not be as hot as the outside of the blade. Steel contains carbon and that allows it to be hardened. Iron does not contain carbon, and cannot be hardened. You can heat iron all day long, plunge it into water, and it will still be soft. It is impossible for you to do any damage at all to your blade by heating it with a candle.

11th September 2010, 12:35 AM	#86
imas560 Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 180	Hello Mr. Maisey, I appreciate the advice and your taking the time to step me through the process. I'll shorten up the ali foil on the hilt (was using it to protect the hilt from any damage I might inadvertently do with the candle flame). I'll let the candle play longer on the blade to build up the heat so I can feel the heat with the hand I hold the hilt with. Am finding the project very interesting and appreciate everyone's input/pointers.

11th September 2010, 01:41 AM	#87
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	Imas, you will find that once you've done this two or three times its very, very easy, and this drawn out experience you're having at the moment will be like a bad memory. The hand that holds the hilt will tell you if it is getting too hot. The hand that holds the blade will tell you if it is not hot enough.

16th September 2010, 08:42 AM	#89
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	Just pull it off and throw it away. Its rubbish. When you refit the hilt you will use knitting wool.

16th September 2010, 10:54 AM	#90
imas560 Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 180	Thanks Mr. Maisey. Next step is the degrease which hopefully will happen this weekend. Also have started inquiries about obtainability of arsenic.