A strange weapon (tool?) with arabic marking

Devadatta · 10th January 2012, 04:01 AM

Dear colleagues,

That's what appeared recently at our local arms forum, its' owner doesn't know what it is and neither do I, but it seems for me it's hardly a weapon but maybe a tool of a carpenter, or a kitchen tool (?). It also has some marking in arabic

Please judge...thank you all in advance!

kahnjar1 · 10th January 2012, 04:38 AM

Any dimensions? Looks as if it could be a chisel of some sort. Does the knob at the top show any signs of having been hit?
Regards Stuart

spiral · 10th January 2012, 08:43 AM

Interesting piece, Id guess a kitchen tool, could be cleaver,tenderiser,flipper etc.

Are any of the edges sharp? If so which?

Spiral

AJ1356 · 10th January 2012, 01:27 PM

Interesting item, no idea what it is however. Not a cooking tool, or for any kind of cleaving, not sure of the size but could be a shoemakers tool. Anyways, the 2 smaps in the bottom read استاد شبان Ustaad Shabaan. Ustaad means a teacher as well as a master, so it could be make by Ustaad Shabaan or was for him. Shabaan is a name but also means shepard. Get me a better picture of the top stamo and I can see what it reads.

Atlantia · 10th January 2012, 01:45 PM

Looks like a builders 'brick chisel' or stonemasons tool.
The mushroom end suggests it was to be struck.
I'm guessing it is 'sharp' on the opposite end, not on the sides?

ALEX · 10th January 2012, 02:55 PM

This is Persian meat cleaver. probably of Qajar period.

AJ1356 · 10th January 2012, 03:13 PM

Now if we say it is a meat cleaver from some back wood island nation that did not have any concepts of simple Physics, then sure why not it is a meat cleaver. But so say it is a meat cleaver from a part of the world that probably invented meat cleavers (did a wiki and aparently chinese did the invention which persia traded with for 1000s of years) then that is just plain silly.

meat cleaver

Rick · 10th January 2012, 04:01 PM

Without more and better pictures and a better description of the piece we are going to have a hard time with identification ..

spiral · 10th January 2012, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJ1356

Now if we say it is a meat cleaver from some back wood island nation that did not have any concepts of simple Physics, then sure why not it is a meat cleaver.

I am assuming it is possible that we are seeing the tang & forged pommel at that one time had a wooden or leather handle?

As Rick stated Dimensions, description & good photos are needed.

Spiral

ALEX · 10th January 2012, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJ1356

Now if we say it is a meat cleaver from some back wood island nation that did not have any concepts of simple Physics, then sure why not it is a meat cleaver. But so say it is a meat cleaver from a part of the world that probably invented meat cleavers (did a wiki and aparently chinese did the invention which persia traded with for 1000s of years) then that is just plain silly.

no need for Physics or any other science. one either knows/bases an opinion on some related data, or thinks he knows

...

Atlantia · 10th January 2012, 05:10 PM

Wow, great catch Alex, I wouldn't have guessed.

Atlantia · 10th January 2012, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

Interesting piece, Id guess a kitchen tool, could be cleaver,tenderiser,flipper etc.

Are any of the edges sharp? If so which?

Spiral

And good catch Spiral too! I didn't peg it as a cleaver.

ALEX · 10th January 2012, 06:41 PM

this one is easy. its all in the books

AJ1356 · 11th January 2012, 04:42 PM

I dunno, to me it just does not make sense that all along people were using regular meat cleavers and all of a sudden they went retarded and started making not so useful meatcleavers. All the classical books I had read when I was younger depiced them as we see them now, even today I checked my old Persian dictionary and surprisingly it had a drawing of a meatcleaver that looked as it does today. who knows, then again Western books gave many wrong names to items that make the local people

and wonder where in hell did they come up with that name for that item, since we don't know it by that name.

Stan S. · 11th January 2012, 09:22 PM

This meat cleaver is probably designed to break through bones (hence it is more of a sturdy wedge to be struck with a hammer, rather than being lighter axe-like implement). I am very curious however as to why some are rather lavishly decorated? Clealry not a tool of a simple butcher... Were these intended to be used at the table rather than in the kitchen? And if so, are there any specific traditions/customs surrounding their use?

Devadatta · 16th January 2012, 09:05 PM

Thank you all very much! Unfortunatelly it's not mine and I don't kniw the dimensions, while the original owner is still offline.

ALEX · 17th January 2012, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stan S.

...I am very curious however as to why some are rather lavishly decorated? Clealry not a tool of a simple butcher...

Stan, regarding the "lavish" decor - the're all acid etched, which is considered the "lowest" form of decoration. this is the easiest and most mass--production method which requires very little skill and also least expensive.
Do not let the "intricacy" of depiction full you. It is very simple and was done in bundles by the lowest-paid workers using the same template (likely to fetch a bit more money for being "decorated"), but the prestige of such decoration is according.

ausjulius · 31st January 2012, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJ1356

Now if we say it is a meat cleaver from some back wood island nation that did not have any concepts of simple Physics, then sure why not it is a meat cleaver. But so say it is a meat cleaver from a part of the world that probably invented meat cleavers (did a wiki and aparently chinese did the invention which persia traded with for 1000s of years) then that is just plain silly.

meat cleaver

Well. it is a type of meat cleaver.. not the only meat cleaver they have in this area there is quite a few different types...... in iran for example there is several styles traditionally .. some look more like a typical cleaver but with a pinned tang and very thick blade some up to 15mm thick. the modern european cleaver is are a recent product and is still mostly preferred with only northern europeans. southern europe and the balkans have several typical styles of their own. in russia and eastern central europe and central asia a meat axe is preferred, in medieval northern continental europe knives looking like a giant golok with a open front wooden sheath were standard for larger work , some with blades almost 3 feet.
then an axe used for the smaller work. not at all what is used today

drac2k · 12th December 2016, 08:52 PM

Meat Cleaver or not? Recently Imperial auctions sold a similar item, and called it a "Persian Cleaver,Oajar Dynasty,Characteristically carried in Muharram processions." This one appeared to be gold inlaid(not etched), and of good quality.
I now see one advertised in Fagan Arms as an "18th Century Persian Executioner's Ax;"Have any other opinions emerged since 2012 ?

ariel · 12th December 2016, 10:19 PM

I think that "torture tool" or "executioner's tool" might be more enticing and exciting than just a "butcher's cleaver" ( for a certain kind of creeps, at least). Brings more moola.
Several times in my e-bay career I came upon a misidentified beheading sword offered for a song. Did not even bid on it. Did not want it to enter my house even for a moment.

drac2k · 13th December 2016, 03:04 AM

So do you have an opinion as to the nature of this item ?

ariel · 13th December 2016, 03:57 AM

Sorry, were you asking me?

Just a butcher's cleaver, as was said by Alex.

drac2k · 13th December 2016, 01:19 PM

Thanks.

Kubur · 13th December 2016, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drac2k

So do you have an opinion as to the nature of this item ?

yes it's a Persian cleaver as it was brilliantly demonstrated by Alex!

10th January 2012, 04:01 AM	#1
Devadatta Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 118	A strange weapon (tool?) with arabic marking Dear colleagues, That's what appeared recently at our local arms forum, its' owner doesn't know what it is and neither do I, but it seems for me it's hardly a weapon but maybe a tool of a carpenter, or a kitchen tool (?). It also has some marking in arabic Please judge...thank you all in advance! Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 31st January 2012 at 03:34 PM.

10th January 2012, 03:13 PM	#7
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 314	Now if we say it is a meat cleaver from some back wood island nation that did not have any concepts of simple Physics, then sure why not it is a meat cleaver. But so say it is a meat cleaver from a part of the world that probably invented meat cleavers (did a wiki and aparently chinese did the invention which persia traded with for 1000s of years) then that is just plain silly. meat cleaver Attached Images

10th January 2012, 04:01 PM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	The Obvious Without more and better pictures and a better description of the piece we are going to have a hard time with identification ..

10th January 2012, 06:41 PM	#13
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 935	this one is easy. its all in the books Attached Images

10th January 2012, 04:38 AM	#2
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,728	Any dimensions? Looks as if it could be a chisel of some sort. Does the knob at the top show any signs of having been hit? Regards Stuart

10th January 2012, 08:43 AM	#3
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Interesting piece, Id guess a kitchen tool, could be cleaver,tenderiser,flipper etc. Are any of the edges sharp? If so which? Spiral

10th January 2012, 01:27 PM	#4
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 314	Interesting item, no idea what it is however. Not a cooking tool, or for any kind of cleaving, not sure of the size but could be a shoemakers tool. Anyways, the 2 smaps in the bottom read استاد شبان Ustaad Shabaan. Ustaad means a teacher as well as a master, so it could be make by Ustaad Shabaan or was for him. Shabaan is a name but also means shepard. Get me a better picture of the top stamo and I can see what it reads.

10th January 2012, 01:45 PM	#5
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Looks like a builders 'brick chisel' or stonemasons tool. The mushroom end suggests it was to be struck. I'm guessing it is 'sharp' on the opposite end, not on the sides?

10th January 2012, 02:55 PM	#6
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 935	This is Persian meat cleaver. probably of Qajar period.

10th January 2012, 05:10 PM	#11
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Wow, great catch Alex, I wouldn't have guessed.

11th January 2012, 04:42 PM	#14
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 314	I dunno, to me it just does not make sense that all along people were using regular meat cleavers and all of a sudden they went retarded and started making not so useful meatcleavers. All the classical books I had read when I was younger depiced them as we see them now, even today I checked my old Persian dictionary and surprisingly it had a drawing of a meatcleaver that looked as it does today. who knows, then again Western books gave many wrong names to items that make the local people and wonder where in hell did they come up with that name for that item, since we don't know it by that name.

11th January 2012, 09:22 PM	#15
Stan S. Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Brooklyn, NY USA Posts: 227	This meat cleaver is probably designed to break through bones (hence it is more of a sturdy wedge to be struck with a hammer, rather than being lighter axe-like implement). I am very curious however as to why some are rather lavishly decorated? Clealry not a tool of a simple butcher... Were these intended to be used at the table rather than in the kitchen? And if so, are there any specific traditions/customs surrounding their use?

16th January 2012, 09:05 PM	#16
Devadatta Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 118	Thank you all very much! Unfortunatelly it's not mine and I don't kniw the dimensions, while the original owner is still offline.

12th December 2016, 08:52 PM	#19
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,174	Meat Cleaver or not? Recently Imperial auctions sold a similar item, and called it a "Persian Cleaver,Oajar Dynasty,Characteristically carried in Muharram processions." This one appeared to be gold inlaid(not etched), and of good quality. I now see one advertised in Fagan Arms as an "18th Century Persian Executioner's Ax;"Have any other opinions emerged since 2012 ?

12th December 2016, 10:19 PM	#20
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I think that "torture tool" or "executioner's tool" might be more enticing and exciting than just a "butcher's cleaver" ( for a certain kind of creeps, at least). Brings more moola. Several times in my e-bay career I came upon a misidentified beheading sword offered for a song. Did not even bid on it. Did not want it to enter my house even for a moment.

13th December 2016, 03:04 AM	#21
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,174	So do you have an opinion as to the nature of this item ?

13th December 2016, 03:57 AM	#22
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Sorry, were you asking me? Just a butcher's cleaver, as was said by Alex.

13th December 2016, 01:19 PM	#23
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,174	Thanks.