What can anyone tell me about this?

Gary Varner · 10th August 2007, 06:23 AM

Greetings. I am new to these forums but have learned a great deal in the few days that I have been reading the posts. I believe the photo of the blade below is Sudanese but anyone have any idea as to its age and what the "S" may symbolize on the blade? (I have placed a bid on Amazon for it and am curious.)

Thanks,

Gary

Gary Varner · 10th August 2007, 09:40 PM

Well I now own this piece so would really appreciate any information anyone can give me on it. Do you think the blade is a repurposed spear head? Does the "S" engraved on the blade have any meanings?

Thanks,

Gary

Jim McDougall · 12th August 2007, 11:56 PM

Most interesting, as Sudanese weapons always are! While this appears to be an arm dagger it is interesting to note that in upper regions of Sudan, typically in Dongola there are large shortswords of similar blade shape and configuration.
The 'S' marking is also most interesting, and I have tried to discover more on such unusual marks found on Sudanese blades that are clearly not the typically seen imitations of European trade blade marks. I have seen kaskara from Darfur with such deep, highly stylized marks and have been of the personal opinion that these may be somehow associated with the brands that occur on camels and cattle, particularly from Kordofan (a province which was primarily central Sudan). Symbolized marks typically were intended to represent either material objects or often totemically associated animals or creatures. There seems of course a good possibility that the S shape may well represent obviously, the snake.
The idea of such markings used by tribal groupings on weapons remains unproven, however it is known that geometric and stylized symbols found on early rock art often was duplicated in adopted symbolism in such brands on animals.

Please let us know if you acquire the weapon and would like to see close ups of the marking.
All best regards,
Jim

ward · 13th August 2007, 12:31 AM

I do not beleive you are suppose to post items that are currently on auction

Gary Varner · 13th August 2007, 12:36 AM

Thanks Jim! Very helpful and interesting indeed! I did obtain it for a very good price too I am pleased to say. I have attached a close up of the marking on the blade and the decorations on the handle. Do you think this was a repurposed spear by any chance?

Gary Varner · 13th August 2007, 12:37 AM

Sorry, luckily I now own it but I will refrain in the future.

Thanks,

Gary

Gary Varner · 13th August 2007, 12:52 AM

I am embarrassed by my violation of the forum rules. Having just reread them I will impose a 10 day ban on myself on any future posts and promise not to violate them in the future. Thanks for your patience!

Gary

Jim McDougall · 13th August 2007, 01:22 AM

That is true Ward, and perhaps that is why nobody else responded to this post. I responded to address the topic on the marking hoping that avoiding any remarks on authenticity or value would not compromise auction activity.

Mark · 13th August 2007, 02:35 PM

Is this auction now over? I can't find it, but I'm am not familiar with the Amazon auction site.

It is against forum rules to post about items in active auctions, but as there was no link to the auction, the infraction is minor.

I will keep the thread open for now, since I can't tell if its stil live.

tom hyle · 13th August 2007, 02:37 PM

Why do you think it's a spear blade?
I am interested in what appear to be bevels at the shoulders of the blade, where it narrows to the tang (or tongue; the part in the handle); it looks like there are sharpened bevels facing toward the handle, that would cut(?) any stray fibres or skin that gets caught in that joint?.....

Gary Varner · 13th August 2007, 03:40 PM

Mark, no the auction is over--I was the only bidder it appears luckily for me. Tom I was just wondering if it could possibly have been a spear as its shape is similar to other spear points I have seen but I also have seen illustrations of similar Sudan and central African daggers/swords that weren't originally spears. I am rather unfamiliar with this weapon. I was told that it was probably in excess of 100 years in age but I don't know how to determine that.

Thanks all for your input!

Gary

Jim McDougall · 14th August 2007, 06:17 AM

Gary,
I am glad you were able to get this interesting dagger! Also, your oversight in the post was just that, and I commend you for your sincerity in acknowledging the error. With that out of the way, I would like to note that I do not believe this blade has anything to do with a spear blade either.

More important, that marking. While I had originally thought this might represent a snake, in seeing it closer, I believe this image may represent an unusual weapon known in the Sudan. This was typically regarded as a ritual knife (detail beyound that is unclear) and comprised two reversed curve iron blades on either end of a central handle, a particularly wicked looking weapon with the blades typically etched with 'thuluth' script. These opposed blade weapons are apparantly derived from a Rajput weapon of this form termed a 'haladie' (Stone p.275, Egerton 390) and are noted to still have been in use in Syria in 20th c. This reference to Syria might account for the diffusion of this weapon into North Africa.

In any case, it is known that such markings often represent significant material objects, in this case possibly alluding to one of these 'ritual daggers' to suggest more elevated status for this weapon itself.
In its size, does this appear to be of the size for an arm dagger?

Best regards,
Jim

Flavio · 14th August 2007, 10:05 AM

Hi all!! To me this is a sudnese dagger, but in the largest meaning of the word "sudanese": I think that this is more from the west part of the Sudan (the region south of the Sahara) more than the present Sudan country.

Gary Varner · 15th August 2007, 12:26 AM

Thanks Jim for your interesting observations! Yes, the dagger does look like the typical size of the arm dagger (at least what I have seen in photographs). The "S" mark, by the way, is on both sides of the blade. I suppose this is one of those cases where we will never truly know the meaning of the symbol but I certainly am inclined to go with your idea that it may represent a double-curved ritual weapon since, in looking at the "S" more closely myself, it appears that it is a joined curve rather than a correct "S". I suppose that could be due to the difficulty in the engraving though.

If you happen to think of any additional possibilities I would be most pleased to hear them!

Thanks,

Gary

Jim McDougall · 15th August 2007, 07:09 AM

Hi Gary,
I had thought this was probably of arm dagger size, thank you for confirming. The 'S' appeared more to be two opposed and conjoined semicircles, much in the same profile as these ritual dagger/ haladie weapons, so the representation seemed plausible. I will let you know if anything else comes up, the associations possible between these markings sometimes found on Sudanese blades and objects, and tribal symbols becomes compelling.
All the best,
Jim

10th August 2007, 06:23 AM	#1
Gary Varner Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Sacramento, California Posts: 18	What can anyone tell me about this? Greetings. I am new to these forums but have learned a great deal in the few days that I have been reading the posts. I believe the photo of the blade below is Sudanese but anyone have any idea as to its age and what the "S" may symbolize on the blade? (I have placed a bid on Amazon for it and am curious.) Thanks, Gary Attached Images

13th August 2007, 12:36 AM	#5
Gary Varner Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Sacramento, California Posts: 18	Thanks Jim! Very helpful and interesting indeed! I did obtain it for a very good price too I am pleased to say. I have attached a close up of the marking on the blade and the decorations on the handle. Do you think this was a repurposed spear by any chance? Attached Images

14th August 2007, 06:17 AM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,740	Gary, I am glad you were able to get this interesting dagger! Also, your oversight in the post was just that, and I commend you for your sincerity in acknowledging the error. With that out of the way, I would like to note that I do not believe this blade has anything to do with a spear blade either. More important, that marking. While I had originally thought this might represent a snake, in seeing it closer, I believe this image may represent an unusual weapon known in the Sudan. This was typically regarded as a ritual knife (detail beyound that is unclear) and comprised two reversed curve iron blades on either end of a central handle, a particularly wicked looking weapon with the blades typically etched with 'thuluth' script. These opposed blade weapons are apparantly derived from a Rajput weapon of this form termed a 'haladie' (Stone p.275, Egerton 390) and are noted to still have been in use in Syria in 20th c. This reference to Syria might account for the diffusion of this weapon into North Africa. In any case, it is known that such markings often represent significant material objects, in this case possibly alluding to one of these 'ritual daggers' to suggest more elevated status for this weapon itself. In its size, does this appear to be of the size for an arm dagger? Best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 14th August 2007 at 06:32 AM.

10th August 2007, 09:40 PM	#2
Gary Varner Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Sacramento, California Posts: 18	Well I now own this piece so would really appreciate any information anyone can give me on it. Do you think the blade is a repurposed spear head? Does the "S" engraved on the blade have any meanings? Thanks, Gary

12th August 2007, 11:56 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,740	Most interesting, as Sudanese weapons always are! While this appears to be an arm dagger it is interesting to note that in upper regions of Sudan, typically in Dongola there are large shortswords of similar blade shape and configuration. The 'S' marking is also most interesting, and I have tried to discover more on such unusual marks found on Sudanese blades that are clearly not the typically seen imitations of European trade blade marks. I have seen kaskara from Darfur with such deep, highly stylized marks and have been of the personal opinion that these may be somehow associated with the brands that occur on camels and cattle, particularly from Kordofan (a province which was primarily central Sudan). Symbolized marks typically were intended to represent either material objects or often totemically associated animals or creatures. There seems of course a good possibility that the S shape may well represent obviously, the snake. The idea of such markings used by tribal groupings on weapons remains unproven, however it is known that geometric and stylized symbols found on early rock art often was duplicated in adopted symbolism in such brands on animals. Please let us know if you acquire the weapon and would like to see close ups of the marking. All best regards, Jim

13th August 2007, 12:31 AM	#4
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	I do not beleive you are suppose to post items that are currently on auction

13th August 2007, 12:37 AM	#6
Gary Varner Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Sacramento, California Posts: 18	Sorry, luckily I now own it but I will refrain in the future. Thanks, Gary

13th August 2007, 12:52 AM	#7
Gary Varner Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Sacramento, California Posts: 18	I am embarrassed by my violation of the forum rules. Having just reread them I will impose a 10 day ban on myself on any future posts and promise not to violate them in the future. Thanks for your patience! Gary

13th August 2007, 01:22 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,740	That is true Ward, and perhaps that is why nobody else responded to this post. I responded to address the topic on the marking hoping that avoiding any remarks on authenticity or value would not compromise auction activity.

13th August 2007, 02:35 PM	#9
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Is this auction now over? I can't find it, but I'm am not familiar with the Amazon auction site. It is against forum rules to post about items in active auctions, but as there was no link to the auction, the infraction is minor. I will keep the thread open for now, since I can't tell if its stil live.

13th August 2007, 02:37 PM	#10
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Why do you think it's a spear blade? I am interested in what appear to be bevels at the shoulders of the blade, where it narrows to the tang (or tongue; the part in the handle); it looks like there are sharpened bevels facing toward the handle, that would cut(?) any stray fibres or skin that gets caught in that joint?.....

13th August 2007, 03:40 PM	#11
Gary Varner Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Sacramento, California Posts: 18	Mark, no the auction is over--I was the only bidder it appears luckily for me. Tom I was just wondering if it could possibly have been a spear as its shape is similar to other spear points I have seen but I also have seen illustrations of similar Sudan and central African daggers/swords that weren't originally spears. I am rather unfamiliar with this weapon. I was told that it was probably in excess of 100 years in age but I don't know how to determine that. Thanks all for your input! Gary

14th August 2007, 10:05 AM	#13
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hi all!! To me this is a sudnese dagger, but in the largest meaning of the word "sudanese": I think that this is more from the west part of the Sudan (the region south of the Sahara) more than the present Sudan country.

15th August 2007, 12:26 AM	#14
Gary Varner Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Sacramento, California Posts: 18	Thanks Jim for your interesting observations! Yes, the dagger does look like the typical size of the arm dagger (at least what I have seen in photographs). The "S" mark, by the way, is on both sides of the blade. I suppose this is one of those cases where we will never truly know the meaning of the symbol but I certainly am inclined to go with your idea that it may represent a double-curved ritual weapon since, in looking at the "S" more closely myself, it appears that it is a joined curve rather than a correct "S". I suppose that could be due to the difficulty in the engraving though. If you happen to think of any additional possibilities I would be most pleased to hear them! Thanks, Gary

15th August 2007, 07:09 AM	#15
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,740	Hi Gary, I had thought this was probably of arm dagger size, thank you for confirming. The 'S' appeared more to be two opposed and conjoined semicircles, much in the same profile as these ritual dagger/ haladie weapons, so the representation seemed plausible. I will let you know if anything else comes up, the associations possible between these markings sometimes found on Sudanese blades and objects, and tribal symbols becomes compelling. All the best, Jim