Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Miscellania
FAQ Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 7th October 2022, 05:47 AM   #1
AHorsa
Member
 
AHorsa's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Rhineland
Posts: 352
Default What a creature do I have here?

Dear All,

does anyoknow the origin and meaning of that strange creature?
I assume it is possibly not European, but Indian or Asian? Or something Nordic? Does anyone have a better idea? Dimensions: 21x12x10cm / 8.3x4.7x4inch

I am happy about any idea!

Kind regards
Andreas
Attached Images
      

Last edited by AHorsa; 7th October 2022 at 10:36 AM.
AHorsa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th October 2022, 11:32 AM   #2
M ELEY
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NC, U.S.A.
Posts: 2,066
Default

What a fascinating carving, Andreas! Where did you find it? Any info at all on this piece? Seems genuinely old with weathering/patina. Perhaps the type of wood (if we could identify it) might help give us an origin. In profile, it reminds me of Singhalese kastane and 'dog head' hangers from Shri Lanka, but who knows...
Attached Images
  
M ELEY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th October 2022, 01:58 PM   #3
AHorsa
Member
 
AHorsa's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Rhineland
Posts: 352
Default

Thanks for your reply. It comes from an auction in Germany and was contemporary mounted on a 19th century furniture decoration (s. image).
Sadly I have no idea on the sort of wood.
Indeed, the Sinhalese depictions has some analogy. But there is many points I find strange on this depiction:

The position of the nose and the something below (red arrows)
The strange stylised cheek-bones
The decorations on the neck of the creature
The hole in the "nose"

I did some scratchy research but could´t find equivalends asian carvings.

Kind regards
Andreas
Attached Images
    
AHorsa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th October 2022, 07:41 AM   #4
M ELEY
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NC, U.S.A.
Posts: 2,066
Default

19th c? I would have guessed earlier

Yes, it is a strange mystery. The reasons I thought of the Singhalese connection was directly because of the strange 'collar' design of the neck on yours resembling some kastane hilts, plus the positioning of the ears on yours again similar. Many of the designs for the hilts were, much like kris hilts, very abstract. The Shri Lankans used many symbols of stylized lions in their art, weapons, currency and, of course, flags. Furniture, by the same token, began using lions as claw feet in the early Baroque period. I was hoping someone far more knowledgeable would swoop in to help us at this point!
M ELEY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th October 2022, 08:14 AM   #5
AHorsa
Member
 
AHorsa's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Rhineland
Posts: 352
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by M ELEY View Post
19th c? I would have guessed earlier
The furniture parts are 19th century (I guess). I am with you that the carved head might be earlier.
AHorsa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th October 2022, 10:11 AM   #6
M ELEY
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NC, U.S.A.
Posts: 2,066
Default

It might be lack of sleep (I'm a night shift nurse), but I had some other thoughts on this piece. The finish on it appears rough, but not just from age, but as if made that way? If so, probably not furniture. The open 'mouth' could be to hold a rope (banner? A sail rope?) or bannister if this item were flat/vertical against a wall? From my nautical interests, I even contemplated if this were a cat's head or some figurehead for a Thai prow! You see what sleep deprivation can produce!?

https://www.scottishmaritimemuseum.o...ark-cats-head/

Last edited by M ELEY; 8th October 2022 at 10:22 AM.
M ELEY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th October 2022, 09:34 PM   #7
JBG163
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: France
Posts: 203
Default

Looks to me like it depict a Makara, an indian sea creature with an elephant trunk. (to me, the trunk is reversed back the nose/head). First picture from the Guimet Museum, second my vision of the trunk, and last, the two trunk hole from above
Attached Images
   
JBG163 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th October 2022, 08:52 AM   #8
AHorsa
Member
 
AHorsa's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Rhineland
Posts: 352
Default

Thank you for your replies and thoughts!

I think the Makara might be a pretty possible solution!

Kind regards!
AHorsa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th October 2022, 11:36 AM   #9
M ELEY
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NC, U.S.A.
Posts: 2,066
Default

That really does fit the bill nicely! Now we can ponder if it was a piece from a temple, wall mount or as originally depicted, lying flat on a surface and possibly as a decoration for a larger piece of furniture. Altar???
M ELEY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th October 2022, 12:03 PM   #10
JBG163
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: France
Posts: 203
Default

Makara is a creature serving Varuna, the god of water. Makara are considered guardian of doors and entrance, and are generally depicted in hindouist architecture. Mostly as gargoyles or corbel. The heavy weathered state of the sculpture would indicate an outdoor use in my opinion
JBG163 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th October 2022, 05:09 PM   #11
Interested Party
Member
 
Interested Party's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Eastern Sierra
Posts: 382
Default

It crossed my mind. Also, since a Germanic/Scandinavian origin was mentioned a historicism for a Viking ships prow?
Interested Party is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th October 2022, 10:16 PM   #12
Gustav
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,196
Default

This could be a depiction of front part of a leaping horse, with saddle and reins. The upper side of head is heavily deteoriated, but we see reins, nostrils and mouth. The object is currently mounted in the wrong way. It surely was kept outside, looks like a corbel.

Last edited by Gustav; 12th October 2022 at 10:05 AM.
Gustav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th October 2022, 09:51 AM   #13
Gustav
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,196
Default

That would be the correct orientation:
Attached Images
 
Gustav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th October 2022, 09:53 AM   #14
Gustav
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,196
Default

Front view:
Attached Images
 
Gustav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th October 2022, 05:18 PM   #15
JBG163
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: France
Posts: 203
Default

Great ! Looks better. I clearly see the horse and the équipement. You can probably put the makara idea aside !
JBG163 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th October 2022, 07:54 PM   #16
AHorsa
Member
 
AHorsa's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Rhineland
Posts: 352
Default

Great! That really makes sense. I took it upside down the whole time
AHorsa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th October 2022, 03:00 AM   #17
M ELEY
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NC, U.S.A.
Posts: 2,066
Default

Amazing! Yep, I see it now. Pretty cool and also fun trying to solve the mystery! I was thinking a Thai naga prow as well until we actually spot the horse!
M ELEY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th October 2022, 03:15 PM   #18
drac2k
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,174
Default

Call me crazy, but I see a turtle; possibly Inuit, North Western American Indian?

Last edited by drac2k; 16th October 2022 at 03:16 PM. Reason: spelling correction
drac2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th October 2022, 09:41 AM   #19
Dmitry
Member
 
Dmitry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 607
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gustav View Post
This could be a depiction of front part of a leaping horse, with saddle and reins. The upper side of head is heavily deteoriated, but we see reins, nostrils and mouth. The object is currently mounted in the wrong way. It surely was kept outside, looks like a corbel.
Well-done! Great eye! I could only add that even wear on this piece may indicate that it was used for hanging things on it, or as a handle/pull.
Dmitry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th December 2022, 04:45 PM   #20
Peter Hudson
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 283
Default

This is A Makara ...or a Yali. Both can be portrayed in hundreds of slightly different ways and some are simply brackets while others are waterspout heads...and as dagger or sword hilts. I would consider it as a hilt form which is why both are seen as weapons hilts in Sri Lanka and South India etc.

Peter Hudson.
Peter Hudson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th December 2022, 08:13 PM   #21
Will M
Member
 
Will M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario
Posts: 390
Default

I see an insect being eaten by a turtle
Will M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th December 2022, 09:28 PM   #22
Gustav
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,196
Default

Oh no... it's gargoyling again
Gustav is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:39 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.