Yet another Tulwar

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I was directed to our own library for an interesting view of a Tulvar hilt with a Shamshir blade ... Please see http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/shamshir/

In this gold Hilt and Shamshir is the interesting name of this form ..

I Quote "A Shamshir with a typical Indo-Muslim hilt of Delhishahi form, likely 18th century. Many authorities would classify this as a Talwar based upon this hilt, which is of iron covered by a thick layer of yellow gold. A false ricasso in the form of two plates with an embossed and gilded intertwined floral pattern may be seen behind the langets covering the root of the blade. The blade is of wootz steel and bears a gold inlaid Arabic inscription on its spine, likely a religious invocation or prayer. A cartouche with inscription made as a series of small punched marks is present and is illustrated and further described above as b. Overall length: 92.5 cm. (36.2 inches); blade length: 80 cm. (31.2 inches)".Unquote.

On investigating further I discovered that Tipu Sultan also had one of these forms...

I Quote"This Object is a Masterpiece as the National Museum has only one such sword. The sword belongs to emperor Tipu Sultan, who was ruler of Mysore, Karnataka. The Delhishahi hilt with its circular disc pommel, oval grip, small knuckle-guard, short quilons and small langets, is damascened in gold in floral, creeper and geometrical designs all over. The blade is similarly ornamented with floral motifs in gold, and the wooden sheath is covered with maroon velvet.
History of the Object
The sword of Tipu Sultan of Mysore belongs to the closing years of the 18th century. The curved blade is single -edged and is made of fine steel. It is inscribed, on both sides, with the verses from the Holy Quran; the name of Tipu and that of his capital Srirangapattnam are recorded in Tugra style. The verses in Arabic Naskh read: Innal Allah-i-Ala Kulli Shaien Qadeer (Allah is the most powerful and omnipotent ) Nasrun-Minal Alllah-i-Fathun Qarib (With the help of Allah the victory is very near).Wa-Man Yatawakkal Alal Allah-i-Fahua Husbohu Ya Hafiz (Who has faith in Allah, Allah is enough for him). The hilt consists of a circular disc pommel, an oval grip, short quilons, small langets and a knuckle-guard for the protection of hand."Unquote.

This sword can be seen at http://masterpieces.asemus.museum/ma...objectId=14297..

The second sword on black background is shown below and seems to be another of Tipu Sultans many weapons, thus, since it seems to be of Delhishami form I include it here...It differs only in the absence of a Knuckle Guard.

I conclude; it seems logical that attached knuckle guards can be added to hilts without change to the hilt name..In the same way no hilt name change is applied even if the entire hilt is decorated florally, covered in precious metal, inscribed in gold or silver script or even if the blade is entirely switched ...for example with a Shamshir or gilded in Koftgari or with other scroll work under the rainguard or on the blade...The name still stands of the base form.

[Jim McDougall]

Check this thread from 2009. It is pretty comprehensive and reveals this well travelled road from that time, though these discussions have come up many times over the past 15+ years.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...3&page=2&pp=30

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Check this thread from 2009. It is pretty comprehensive and reveals this well travelled road from that time, though these discussions have come up many times over the past 15+ years.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...3&page=2&pp=30

Thanks Jim, It proves how excellent our Library is ...and how useful a research tool... I often find the web giving our Forum coordinates when I search ...

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Thanks Jim, It proves how excellent our Library is ...and how useful a research tool... I often find the web giving our Forum coordinates when I search ...

Indeed it is an amazing resource! I used to have a huge library (when I lived in a house) but there is limited space here in the 'bookmobile'. When I began writing online here on the forum, most of my posts were the result of compiled and referenced data from extended research I did in order to write.
These days I search our pages and find those old posts often as I retrace notes etc. to respond and research topics, and these with my notes as well as the valuable input from so many others here have become my key resource. Much of this is equally found on Google, again linking our huge archived data banks of nearly two decades.
The knowledge of the membership here is phenomenal, and even more so as it is dynamic, thus ever growing and endlessly expanding thanks to our valued contributors .

OK OK! enough pep talk its just that I'm proud of what we have all accomplished here, and continue to do.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Well Ibrahim, I can say that I agree with you.
The names you 'give' the different hilts are from Pant, but who told you that he was wright?
I think it needs far more research before we can be sure, from where the different hilt types came. To this comes, that hilts were very often sold (exported) to other parts of India - undecorated. So it is not unlikely that you can find a 'Delhi' hilt, decorated and bought (by museums/collectors) from Deccan or elsewhere a century later than the hilt was made, or maybe a only a decade later.

Added later. The problem is, that we know far too little about these hilts, and out knowledge is based on unceartin information's.
I do wish that it had been otherwise, but I am afrid that we will have to make our own research. Many of these hilts are very close to each other in looks and none of us know if they really origins from Delhi.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Well Ibrahim, I can say that I agree with you.
The names you 'give' the different hilts are from Pant, but who told you that he was wright?
I think it needs far more research before we can be sure, from where the different hilt types came. To this comes, that hilts were very often sold (exported) to other parts of India - undecorated. So it is not unlikely that you can find a 'Delhi' hilt, decorated and bought (by museums/collectors) from Deccan or elsewhere a century later than the hilt was made, or maybe a only a decade later.

Well noted Jens, and this situation is indeed well established by examples of hilt forms which Pant tried to 'regionalize' into certain areas. However some examples of the same form may be found in other areas with quite different localized motif.

The fact that these primary hilt forms were retained and used for almost indeterminate lengths of time, over not only generations, but centuries, makes identification by that criteria alone in most cases unlikely.

Still, the occurrence of elements or features which vary from other examples of similar form which have a degree of consistancy may on occasion establish a compelling suggestion to more specific regions.

Also the potential cases of diplomatic gifts and often even trophy weapons in addition to these 'trade' instances further complicate classifications, but those may be more isolated.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Well Ibrahim, I can say that I agree with you.
The names you 'give' the different hilts are from Pant, but who told you that he was wright?
I think it needs far more research before we can be sure, from where the different hilt types came. To this comes, that hilts were very often sold (exported) to other parts of India - undecorated. So it is not unlikely that you can find a 'Delhi' hilt, decorated and bought (by museums/collectors) from Deccan or elsewhere a century later than the hilt was made, or maybe a only a decade later.

Added later. The problem is, that we know far too little about these hilts, and out knowledge is based on unceartin information's.
I do wish that it had been otherwise, but I am afrid that we will have to make our own research. Many of these hilts are very close to each other in looks and none of us know if they really origins from Delhi.

I absolutely agree...although I don't have Pant to hand or many other specialized books so what I tend to focus on is web references and those of the Forum Library...

All these Tulvar relatives form a kind of national soup ! They are as common a denominator as Indian Curry is to Indian cuisine! I have seen Tulvar hilts on Ethiopian swords and almost every form of mixed blade and hilt as well as the highly decorated very expensive Mughal designs; lavish, exquisite, dripping in diamonds and gold...all in the mix...

Turkish/ Afghan/ Persian ? It is almost impossible to distinguish one from the other thus pinpoint accuracy is out of the question, however, diving into this pool is well worth the effort for beginners and enthusiastic learners alike and armed with the information in our pages they can see and better understand the problems.

Indian weapons are a massive subject not least because of the European variations and neighboring countries absorbing and fusing their designs and influences. It is a lifes work.