Interesting Medallion, of Unknown Origin

dana_w · 20th December 2012, 04:09 PM

Can anyone tell me what this medallion is? It looks religious. Originally I was told it was Greek, then Russian, and now Roman. Are the figures at the top wearing armor? Are they birds, dragons ?? The oval section is about 3 inches in diameter.

Jim McDougall · 22nd December 2012, 05:41 PM

Dana,
While this item is of course interesting, I think it rather strains the scope of the regular discussion topics here, which is of course European arms & armour. There are indeed times when clues to motif and decoration on arms may be found under nusimatic or heraldic sources, but those are typically limited. Trying to recheck my references to find a match was unsuccessful, I was so sure I had seen something like it, but some of the images turned out to be old coins. The reason I mentioned heraldry is because often various charges or devices often perch atop the main field or shield.

I think your best bet would be a query to specialists in those fields as often the themes and images on medallions etc. are often widely represented on coins and heraldic iconography.
This seems similar to any number of representations of these kinds of items I have seen in books on chivalry, heraldry, medieval history etc. The letters in the surround are best classified by linguists, or by matching with examples of various descriptions or examples online.

Sorry to not be more help, but did not want to leave your post unanswered.

All the best,
Jim

dana_w · 22nd December 2012, 10:53 PM

Hi Jim,

I had a feeling that the medallion could be a little off topic, so I checked with the lead moderator before posting. Several people seem to think that the figures on top of the object are wearing armor. To me they look like birds with scales, maybe dragons.

Do you know any specialists in the field of heraldry? I am off to do some web searches. Maybe there is a heraldry forum out there.

Thanks for the suggestion. As always, your insight is highly valued.
Dana

........ time passing ......

Found a forum, The Armorial Register - International Register of Arms

Jim McDougall · 23rd December 2012, 11:20 AM

Hi Dana,
I didn't mean to imply that this item was inappropiately posted here. What I meant was that observations or additions might be somewhat limited in view of the nature of the item here in the context of arms discussions. As I had mentioned often associated items can offer valuable clues in our research on arms, so it would seem that at times it can work conversely.

I really dont know offhand any specialists in heraldry, but note that you have found something online. I hope you will keep us posted on anything that turns up, as this remains a most interesting query.

I keep looking at the medallion and the image on the face seems almost like a skeletal figure mounted and holding something like an infant? The crowned king on the reverse is interesting and sometimes books on coins, in this case medieval probably, might show the types of crowns from various countries and kingdoms. The lettering in the surround seems to have the number 1000 along with letters which could be acrostic, often popular in these times on sword blade inscriptions..but then could be words as well.
Here more work on alphabets and the lettering style.

The figures at the top to me seem to be armored and the elements atop the helmets possibly the kind of achievement or decoration often seen on heraldic and funerary images of these. Sometimes these were plumed or actual devices such as birds or heraldic creatures in effigy were atop these helmets.

Again, an most interesting contribution here, and look forward to any findings as well as hopefully other views from readers.

All the best,
Jim

Vendric · 23rd December 2012, 11:31 AM

I think this is a 'Billy and Charlie' named after 2 enterprising 19th c. Characters who made and then discovered on the Thames foreshore pseudo mediaeval items. Note the date 1000, which would , had medals of that period been dated, have been in Roman numerals.
These fakes are now quite collectible in their own right.

Merry Christmas, Richard

dana_w · 23rd December 2012, 03:58 PM

Thanks again Jim.

After looking at the mounted skeletal figure for awhile, I am beginning to think he is holding a man (in a very awkward position). The skeleton is sitting side saddle on something that looks like a bull, but there are four sets of legs on the bulls side.

I will update the post with any additional information that I am able to find.

dana_w · 23rd December 2012, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vendric

I think this is a 'Billy and Charlie' named after 2 enterprising 19th c. Characters who made and then discovered on the Thames foreshore pseudo mediaeval items. Note the date 1000, which would , had medals of that period been dated, have been in Roman numerals.
These fakes are now quite collectible in their own right.

Merry Christmas, Richard

You are the winner Vendric (aka Richard)! A quick search of "Billy and Charlie" and a few clicks later .... Billy & Charlie 1000

fernando · 23rd December 2012, 07:43 PM

Well, i had meanhwile consulted some local medalist forum and they told me this smelled to modern stuff.
So there you are

dana_w · 23rd December 2012, 07:53 PM

At least it is an entertaining story.

The Billy and Charley Story

VANDOO · 23rd December 2012, 08:16 PM

A MOST INTERESTING HISTORY

THERE HAS ALWAYS BEEN A CERTIAN AMOUNT OF THIS IN THE ANTIQUITIES MARKETS AS WELL AS MANY OTHERS. I HAD NEVER HEARD OF THESE TWO SCAMPS AND THEY SURELY WERE VERY SUCESSFUL AND VERY INDUSTRIOUS WITH A LARGE AND VARIED PRODUCT LINE. I USED TO LIKE TO WATCH LOVEJOY ON TV. BECAUSE HE AND HIS CREW WERE A BIT SHADY AND COVERED A LOT OF THE INTERESTING SKULLDRUGERY IN THE BUSINESS.

MODERN STUFF?? PERHAPS BILLY AND CHARLIE LIVE AGAIN.

Jim McDougall · 24th December 2012, 01:01 AM

Absolutely phenomenal!!!
The membership and readers here never cease to amaze me in the 'on call' core of knowledge and experience they hold. This information presents yet another excellent insight into the 'produced antiquities' of the Victorian era and proves this to be an antique in in own right,
Thank you Richard!! and welcome to the forum.

All best regards,
Jim

dana_w · 24th December 2012, 01:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Absolutely phenomenal!!!
The membership and readers here never cease to amaze me in the 'on call' core of knowledge and experience they hold.

I have to agree with Jim, the breadth of knowledge available here is phenomenal.

Thanks again Richard!

20th December 2012, 04:09 PM	#1
dana_w Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Southeast Florida, USA Posts: 429	Interesting Medallion, of Unknown Origin Can anyone tell me what this medallion is? It looks religious. Originally I was told it was Greek, then Russian, and now Roman. Are the figures at the top wearing armor? Are they birds, dragons ?? The oval section is about 3 inches in diameter. Attached Images

22nd December 2012, 10:53 PM	#3
dana_w Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Southeast Florida, USA Posts: 429	Hi Jim, I had a feeling that the medallion could be a little off topic, so I checked with the lead moderator before posting. Several people seem to think that the figures on top of the object are wearing armor. To me they look like birds with scales, maybe dragons. Do you know any specialists in the field of heraldry? I am off to do some web searches. Maybe there is a heraldry forum out there. Thanks for the suggestion. As always, your insight is highly valued. Dana ........ time passing ...... Found a forum, The Armorial Register - International Register of Arms Last edited by dana_w; 23rd December 2012 at 12:30 AM.

22nd December 2012, 05:41 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,767	Dana, While this item is of course interesting, I think it rather strains the scope of the regular discussion topics here, which is of course European arms & armour. There are indeed times when clues to motif and decoration on arms may be found under nusimatic or heraldic sources, but those are typically limited. Trying to recheck my references to find a match was unsuccessful, I was so sure I had seen something like it, but some of the images turned out to be old coins. The reason I mentioned heraldry is because often various charges or devices often perch atop the main field or shield. I think your best bet would be a query to specialists in those fields as often the themes and images on medallions etc. are often widely represented on coins and heraldic iconography. This seems similar to any number of representations of these kinds of items I have seen in books on chivalry, heraldry, medieval history etc. The letters in the surround are best classified by linguists, or by matching with examples of various descriptions or examples online. Sorry to not be more help, but did not want to leave your post unanswered. All the best, Jim

23rd December 2012, 11:20 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,767	Hi Dana, I didn't mean to imply that this item was inappropiately posted here. What I meant was that observations or additions might be somewhat limited in view of the nature of the item here in the context of arms discussions. As I had mentioned often associated items can offer valuable clues in our research on arms, so it would seem that at times it can work conversely. I really dont know offhand any specialists in heraldry, but note that you have found something online. I hope you will keep us posted on anything that turns up, as this remains a most interesting query. I keep looking at the medallion and the image on the face seems almost like a skeletal figure mounted and holding something like an infant? The crowned king on the reverse is interesting and sometimes books on coins, in this case medieval probably, might show the types of crowns from various countries and kingdoms. The lettering in the surround seems to have the number 1000 along with letters which could be acrostic, often popular in these times on sword blade inscriptions..but then could be words as well. Here more work on alphabets and the lettering style. The figures at the top to me seem to be armored and the elements atop the helmets possibly the kind of achievement or decoration often seen on heraldic and funerary images of these. Sometimes these were plumed or actual devices such as birds or heraldic creatures in effigy were atop these helmets. Again, an most interesting contribution here, and look forward to any findings as well as hopefully other views from readers. All the best, Jim

23rd December 2012, 11:31 AM	#5
Vendric Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Lincolnshire, UK Posts: 4	I think this is a 'Billy and Charlie' named after 2 enterprising 19th c. Characters who made and then discovered on the Thames foreshore pseudo mediaeval items. Note the date 1000, which would , had medals of that period been dated, have been in Roman numerals. These fakes are now quite collectible in their own right. Merry Christmas, Richard

23rd December 2012, 03:58 PM	#6
dana_w Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Southeast Florida, USA Posts: 429	Thanks again Jim. After looking at the mounted skeletal figure for awhile, I am beginning to think he is holding a man (in a very awkward position). The skeleton is sitting side saddle on something that looks like a bull, but there are four sets of legs on the bulls side. I will update the post with any additional information that I am able to find.

23rd December 2012, 07:43 PM	#8
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Well, i had meanhwile consulted some local medalist forum and they told me this smelled to modern stuff. So there you are

23rd December 2012, 07:53 PM	#9
dana_w Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Southeast Florida, USA Posts: 429	At least it is an entertaining story. The Billy and Charley Story

23rd December 2012, 08:16 PM	#10
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A MOST INTERESTING HISTORY THERE HAS ALWAYS BEEN A CERTIAN AMOUNT OF THIS IN THE ANTIQUITIES MARKETS AS WELL AS MANY OTHERS. I HAD NEVER HEARD OF THESE TWO SCAMPS AND THEY SURELY WERE VERY SUCESSFUL AND VERY INDUSTRIOUS WITH A LARGE AND VARIED PRODUCT LINE. I USED TO LIKE TO WATCH LOVEJOY ON TV. BECAUSE HE AND HIS CREW WERE A BIT SHADY AND COVERED A LOT OF THE INTERESTING SKULLDRUGERY IN THE BUSINESS. MODERN STUFF?? PERHAPS BILLY AND CHARLIE LIVE AGAIN.

24th December 2012, 01:01 AM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,767	Absolutely phenomenal!!! The membership and readers here never cease to amaze me in the 'on call' core of knowledge and experience they hold. This information presents yet another excellent insight into the 'produced antiquities' of the Victorian era and proves this to be an antique in in own right, Thank you Richard!! and welcome to the forum. All best regards, Jim