Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 22nd February 2015, 07:41 PM   #1
Shakethetrees
Member
 
Shakethetrees's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 363
Default New acquisition

This dagger is 18" overall with a 13" blade. The grip is of green horn. An interesting feature is the stubby guard with bulbous quillions. The layering of its wrought iron manufacture is evident in the second image.

The long raised rib was probably there to increase the stiffness of the double edged blade.

So, my general idea is that it probably dates from the 17th century and possibly from as late as circa 1720's.

The guard, offset grip and overall proportions lead me to believe it falls somewhere in this date range.

As far as country of origin, I have not been convinced yet.

The green horn was from a species of cattle that was, according to one source, from Germany and was exported to different countries to be used as knife/edged weapon grips.

The quillions bear a strong resemblance to turnings found on Baroque era Northern European furniture, with a subset of that style being called "Jacobean" in England.

I welcome any comments, questions or additions. This dagger is not what I usually find, (or pursue), for that matter, so my comments are based solely on the study of images found in paintings, and furniture from the 17th century and slightly later.
Attached Images
   
Shakethetrees is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd February 2015, 07:50 PM   #2
Shakethetrees
Member
 
Shakethetrees's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 363
Default More images

There is a false backstrap carved integrally from the horn grip.

The oval pommel is mounted with a wrought iron cap, securing the peened tang button.

Last edited by Shakethetrees; 22nd February 2015 at 07:51 PM. Reason: Mis spelled word!
Shakethetrees is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd February 2015, 07:52 PM   #3
Shakethetrees
Member
 
Shakethetrees's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 363
Default

It would help if I remembered to add the images!
Attached Images
  
Shakethetrees is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd February 2015, 08:06 AM   #4
corrado26
Member
 
corrado26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Black Forest, Germany
Posts: 1,160
Default

How large is the blade directly under the quillon in cm, please?
corrado26
corrado26 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 25th February 2015, 01:35 AM   #5
Shakethetrees
Member
 
Shakethetrees's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 363
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by corrado26
How large is the blade directly under the quillon in cm, please?
corrado26
Across the width of the ricasso right next to the cross guard is 27mm.
Shakethetrees is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th February 2015, 07:14 AM   #6
corrado26
Member
 
corrado26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Black Forest, Germany
Posts: 1,160
Default

I have the suspision that this object could have been made from an Austrian bajonett M 1854 for the Lorenz-rifle. This bajonet has a width at the end of its blade of 26,9mm.
corrado26
Attached Images
    
corrado26 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 25th February 2015, 02:16 PM   #7
M ELEY
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NC, U.S.A.
Posts: 2,065
Default

Hmmm...The hilt on this piece looks exactly as you guessed, 17th. The blade has honest aging/patina to it. There were certainly ribbed blades with expanded bolsters at this time to aid in armor-piercing. Yes, many bayonet blades had this feature, but I think yours is original to the piece. Not my area, but some research might turn up similar pieces with the thickened/ribbed ridge blade?
M ELEY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th February 2015, 04:39 PM   #8
Shakethetrees
Member
 
Shakethetrees's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 363
Default

The "flanges" of the blade are very thin, almost razor-like. The taper is unlike the taper of the Lorenz, and all other socket bayonets I have see over the years.

In looking at the pommel button and the guard/blade interface, I do not believe it has been apart.

I have un hilted many blades in order to do restoration.i understand how to "cover the tracks" when reassembling. This piece does not have the tell-tale signs of ever having been un-hilted.

I may have access to a Lorenz bayonet. If I can find it, I will add side by side comparison images.
Shakethetrees is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th February 2015, 05:25 PM   #9
Will M
Member
 
Will M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario
Posts: 386
Default

What is the width 10" from the guard? I have a Lorenz bayonet and I don't believe it looks as wide that far out.
Will M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th February 2015, 07:35 PM   #10
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,606
Default

Hi Shakethetrees,
Try and trim the size of your images before you upload them; they may well do with 'half of the height' .

Concerning your interesting piece and not having the knowledge to precise what it is about, i too suspect that all three parts come from different provenance. I have a fantasy that the handle may have belonged in a hunting sword and the guard in a stiletto... but don't pay much notice to my inconsistent opinion .
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th February 2015, 03:12 AM   #11
Will M
Member
 
Will M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario
Posts: 386
Default

10" from the base of a Lorenz blade is 3/4" wide. At the ricasso is 1" wide and 1/2" thick. Seems likely your dagger is a cut down Lorenz
Will M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th February 2015, 04:47 AM   #12
Shakethetrees
Member
 
Shakethetrees's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 363
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Will M
10" from the base of a Lorenz blade is 3/4" wide. At the ricasso is 1" wide and 1/2" thick. Seems likely your dagger is a cut down Lorenz

It's a bit over 3/4" wide at 10" from the guard, and slightly under 5/16" thick, top of the spine to top of the spine at the guard. At the ricasso, it's about 1 1/32".

The taper of the blade overall along the length is not the same as a Lorenz. The bayonet's taper is straight to almost the point, while this blade runs out toward the point in a gentle curve, with the curve becoming more pronounced in the last few inches. The flanges are almost razor-like, too thin for a bayonet.
Shakethetrees is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th February 2015, 05:45 AM   #13
Will M
Member
 
Will M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario
Posts: 386
Default

That does sound different then that bayonet. Can you picture it on edge?

Definitely a thruster with a stiff designed blade.
Will M is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:34 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.