help id these 3

casey · 24th December 2004, 11:11 PM

Can anyone help with possible dates names and areas of these.The first I think is Persian kirk.Blade length is 18.5 inches width is 1.The second I'm not sure maybe moro?length is 22.5 inches width is 1.5.The third i think is klewang the length is 16.5 inches width starts at 1 and spreads to 1.5 near tip. Sorry pics don't show full length.

nechesh · 24th December 2004, 11:19 PM

Hi Casey. The second one does appear to be a Moro kris, but i'm afraid you will have to do better with the photos if you want some more concise info. From what i CAN see the hilt looks fairly new and it seems the baca-baca clamp that secures the hilt to the blade is missing. It would be nice to see the entire blade as well as close-ups of the base and hilt.

casey · 25th December 2004, 12:09 AM

sorry to dissappoint i'll take some better photos as soon as possible.My camera is out of action at the moment.Thanks for the reply and all the best.
Casey

RhysMichael · 25th December 2004, 12:19 AM

Casey
I cannot help you at all with the first but it does appear to be pattern welded.
The second is definitely a moro kris Sundang with better pictures someone here will pin it down more for you . You can also look here
http://home.earthlink.net/~federicom...aponsmain.html

The last could be a Parang Sumbawa but may not be right without better pictures of the blade shape and handle. Does it look like this http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/p...awa/sum01a.jpg
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/p...awa/sum01p.jpg.
if so you can find more on it at this great site
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/
The naga I have been told is common on weapons from Sumatra
I hope this helps and I look forward to seeing the other pictures

Yannis · 25th December 2004, 01:10 AM

First sword is a big question for me. Hilt and form of the blade look like european 18th 19th century military sword but...

Scabbard is oriental, most possible ottoman and blade is... alien! This pattern of damascus i have seen only in new custom made blades.

If this is not a "joke", you have something very special there, my friend! More pictures would help...

tom hyle · 25th December 2004, 02:55 AM

Am I missing something? Isn't it ladder pattern layered steel with a scarf-welded blade base? I'm not seeing anything real unusual about that?....

ariel · 25th December 2004, 08:25 AM

Would be nice to see the blade on the first one. However, the acute angle between the crossguard and the handguard parts looks awfully like Parang Nabur.

casey · 25th December 2004, 08:52 AM

THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR REPLIES.First to RhysM I looked at the links and the third is very similar to Parang Sumbawa. Thank you for your imput and will post bettter pic asap to confirm.NEXT TO Yannis I sincerely hope it is not a joke I am a novice just trying to learn about what has been passed on to me by a dear friend.Tom the ladder pattern sounds familiar can you please give me more info on what you know of this style. Thank you all very much and will update pics soon,this has been very helpfull.
Casey.

RSWORD · 25th December 2004, 03:10 PM

The first example appears to be Indian made but perhaps for a British officer. If you look closely at the cross guard where it meets the top of the handle, it is nicely done in the form of a parrot or birds head. Very Indian. The grip profile seems reminiscent of early 19th century British and European swords with the way the grip swells in the lower half. The blade is pattern welded but is not necessarily new due to the pattern. If you look at some of the nice pattern welded examples in Figiels book, one can see patterns not unlike this one from the 18th and 19th century. The scabbard does look Ottoman from what pics have been shown, but, I wouldn't exclude Indian either. I think it is a rather nice sword.
As everyone says, the second example is a Moro Kris. The blade looks interesting and a full profile shot would be nice.
The 3rd example is from Celebes and has a nicely layered blade. All 3 pieces are quite nice and I hope you share more pieces. Lovely gifts and ones that should be appreciated. Your friend gifted well.

tom hyle · 25th December 2004, 06:57 PM

something wrong with my computer this morning; lost my whole dang reply. Ladder pattern steel is steel with a rhytmically waved grain. Strictly it is straight grain steel with periodic "rungs" or waves seperating the straight-grain sections, as seen here. It is analogous to "curly" grain in wood. The ladder pattern is formed by cutting notches across the steel and then forging them out. On curved blades like this one, the pattern will often be more opened out toward the outer edge of the curve, having been spread out when the curve and the bevel were forged. Within Islam this pattern is often referred to as the ladder of the prophet/ladder of Muhammed, and held to have religious meaning/magical powers. It is a pattern encountered in Europe and Japan, as well as from Mooroco to Indonesia and the Philippines. It is encountered in both layered and wootz/bulat (Tartaric carbide-bearing steel/"true damascus"/crystaline steel), and as either whole blades or welded elements of them (side plates, in my experience). It may lock the layers together against delamination, and also can provide a seration effect at the edge.

24th December 2004, 11:11 PM	#1
casey Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: australia Posts: 13	help id these 3 Can anyone help with possible dates names and areas of these.The first I think is Persian kirk.Blade length is 18.5 inches width is 1.The second I'm not sure maybe moro?length is 22.5 inches width is 1.5.The third i think is klewang the length is 16.5 inches width starts at 1 and spreads to 1.5 near tip. Sorry pics don't show full length. Attached Images

24th December 2004, 11:19 PM	#2
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Hi Casey. The second one does appear to be a Moro kris, but i'm afraid you will have to do better with the photos if you want some more concise info. From what i CAN see the hilt looks fairly new and it seems the baca-baca clamp that secures the hilt to the blade is missing. It would be nice to see the entire blade as well as close-ups of the base and hilt.

25th December 2004, 12:09 AM	#3
casey Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: australia Posts: 13	sorry to dissappoint i'll take some better photos as soon as possible.My camera is out of action at the moment.Thanks for the reply and all the best. Casey

25th December 2004, 12:19 AM	#4
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	Casey I cannot help you at all with the first but it does appear to be pattern welded. The second is definitely a moro kris Sundang with better pictures someone here will pin it down more for you . You can also look here http://home.earthlink.net/~federicom...aponsmain.html The last could be a Parang Sumbawa but may not be right without better pictures of the blade shape and handle. Does it look like this http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/p...awa/sum01a.jpg http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/p...awa/sum01p.jpg. if so you can find more on it at this great site http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/ The naga I have been told is common on weapons from Sumatra I hope this helps and I look forward to seeing the other pictures

25th December 2004, 01:10 AM	#5
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	First sword is a big question for me. Hilt and form of the blade look like european 18th 19th century military sword but... Scabbard is oriental, most possible ottoman and blade is... alien! This pattern of damascus i have seen only in new custom made blades. If this is not a "joke", you have something very special there, my friend! More pictures would help...

25th December 2004, 02:55 AM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Am I missing something? Isn't it ladder pattern layered steel with a scarf-welded blade base? I'm not seeing anything real unusual about that?....

25th December 2004, 08:25 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Would be nice to see the blade on the first one. However, the acute angle between the crossguard and the handguard parts looks awfully like Parang Nabur.

25th December 2004, 08:52 AM	#8
casey Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: australia Posts: 13	THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR REPLIES.First to RhysM I looked at the links and the third is very similar to Parang Sumbawa. Thank you for your imput and will post bettter pic asap to confirm.NEXT TO Yannis I sincerely hope it is not a joke I am a novice just trying to learn about what has been passed on to me by a dear friend.Tom the ladder pattern sounds familiar can you please give me more info on what you know of this style. Thank you all very much and will update pics soon,this has been very helpfull. Casey.

25th December 2004, 03:10 PM	#9
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	The first example appears to be Indian made but perhaps for a British officer. If you look closely at the cross guard where it meets the top of the handle, it is nicely done in the form of a parrot or birds head. Very Indian. The grip profile seems reminiscent of early 19th century British and European swords with the way the grip swells in the lower half. The blade is pattern welded but is not necessarily new due to the pattern. If you look at some of the nice pattern welded examples in Figiels book, one can see patterns not unlike this one from the 18th and 19th century. The scabbard does look Ottoman from what pics have been shown, but, I wouldn't exclude Indian either. I think it is a rather nice sword. As everyone says, the second example is a Moro Kris. The blade looks interesting and a full profile shot would be nice. The 3rd example is from Celebes and has a nicely layered blade. All 3 pieces are quite nice and I hope you share more pieces. Lovely gifts and ones that should be appreciated. Your friend gifted well.

25th December 2004, 06:57 PM	#10
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	something wrong with my computer this morning; lost my whole dang reply. Ladder pattern steel is steel with a rhytmically waved grain. Strictly it is straight grain steel with periodic "rungs" or waves seperating the straight-grain sections, as seen here. It is analogous to "curly" grain in wood. The ladder pattern is formed by cutting notches across the steel and then forging them out. On curved blades like this one, the pattern will often be more opened out toward the outer edge of the curve, having been spread out when the curve and the bevel were forged. Within Islam this pattern is often referred to as the ladder of the prophet/ladder of Muhammed, and held to have religious meaning/magical powers. It is a pattern encountered in Europe and Japan, as well as from Mooroco to Indonesia and the Philippines. It is encountered in both layered and wootz/bulat (Tartaric carbide-bearing steel/"true damascus"/crystaline steel), and as either whole blades or welded elements of them (side plates, in my experience). It may lock the layers together against delamination, and also can provide a seration effect at the edge.