Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 24th December 2004, 10:11 PM   #1
casey
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: australia
Posts: 13
Default help id these 3

Can anyone help with possible dates names and areas of these.The first I think is Persian kirk.Blade length is 18.5 inches width is 1.The second I'm not sure maybe moro?length is 22.5 inches width is 1.5.The third i think is klewang the length is 16.5 inches width starts at 1 and spreads to 1.5 near tip. Sorry pics don't show full length.
Attached Images
   
casey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th December 2004, 10:19 PM   #2
nechesh
Member
 
nechesh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 940
Default

Hi Casey. The second one does appear to be a Moro kris, but i'm afraid you will have to do better with the photos if you want some more concise info. From what i CAN see the hilt looks fairly new and it seems the baca-baca clamp that secures the hilt to the blade is missing. It would be nice to see the entire blade as well as close-ups of the base and hilt.
nechesh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th December 2004, 11:09 PM   #3
casey
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: australia
Posts: 13
Default

sorry to dissappoint i'll take some better photos as soon as possible.My camera is out of action at the moment.Thanks for the reply and all the best.
Casey
casey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th December 2004, 11:19 PM   #4
RhysMichael
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Virginia
Posts: 521
Default

Casey
I cannot help you at all with the first but it does appear to be pattern welded.
The second is definitely a moro kris Sundang with better pictures someone here will pin it down more for you . You can also look here
http://home.earthlink.net/~federico...eaponsmain.html

The last could be a Parang Sumbawa but may not be right without better pictures of the blade shape and handle. Does it look like this http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/...bawa/sum01a.jpg
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/...bawa/sum01p.jpg.
if so you can find more on it at this great site
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/
The naga I have been told is common on weapons from Sumatra
I hope this helps and I look forward to seeing the other pictures
RhysMichael is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th December 2004, 12:10 AM   #5
Yannis
Member
 
Yannis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Athens Greece
Posts: 479
Default

First sword is a big question for me. Hilt and form of the blade look like european 18th 19th century military sword but...

Scabbard is oriental, most possible ottoman and blade is... alien! This pattern of damascus i have seen only in new custom made blades.

If this is not a "joke", you have something very special there, my friend! More pictures would help...
Yannis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th December 2004, 01:55 AM   #6
tom hyle
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Houston, TX, USA
Posts: 1,254
Default

Am I missing something? Isn't it ladder pattern layered steel with a scarf-welded blade base? I'm not seeing anything real unusual about that?....
tom hyle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th December 2004, 07:25 AM   #7
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 4,968
Default

Would be nice to see the blade on the first one. However, the acute angle between the crossguard and the handguard parts looks awfully like Parang Nabur.
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th December 2004, 07:52 AM   #8
casey
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: australia
Posts: 13
Default

THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR REPLIES.First to RhysM I looked at the links and the third is very similar to Parang Sumbawa. Thank you for your imput and will post bettter pic asap to confirm.NEXT TO Yannis I sincerely hope it is not a joke I am a novice just trying to learn about what has been passed on to me by a dear friend.Tom the ladder pattern sounds familiar can you please give me more info on what you know of this style. Thank you all very much and will update pics soon,this has been very helpfull.
Casey.
casey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th December 2004, 02:10 PM   #9
RSWORD
Member
 
RSWORD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Greensboro, NC
Posts: 957
Default

The first example appears to be Indian made but perhaps for a British officer. If you look closely at the cross guard where it meets the top of the handle, it is nicely done in the form of a parrot or birds head. Very Indian. The grip profile seems reminiscent of early 19th century British and European swords with the way the grip swells in the lower half. The blade is pattern welded but is not necessarily new due to the pattern. If you look at some of the nice pattern welded examples in Figiels book, one can see patterns not unlike this one from the 18th and 19th century. The scabbard does look Ottoman from what pics have been shown, but, I wouldn't exclude Indian either. I think it is a rather nice sword.
As everyone says, the second example is a Moro Kris. The blade looks interesting and a full profile shot would be nice.
The 3rd example is from Celebes and has a nicely layered blade. All 3 pieces are quite nice and I hope you share more pieces. Lovely gifts and ones that should be appreciated. Your friend gifted well.
RSWORD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th December 2004, 05:57 PM   #10
tom hyle
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Houston, TX, USA
Posts: 1,254
Default

something wrong with my computer this morning; lost my whole dang reply. Ladder pattern steel is steel with a rhytmically waved grain. Strictly it is straight grain steel with periodic "rungs" or waves seperating the straight-grain sections, as seen here. It is analogous to "curly" grain in wood. The ladder pattern is formed by cutting notches across the steel and then forging them out. On curved blades like this one, the pattern will often be more opened out toward the outer edge of the curve, having been spread out when the curve and the bevel were forged. Within Islam this pattern is often referred to as the ladder of the prophet/ladder of Muhammed, and held to have religious meaning/magical powers. It is a pattern encountered in Europe and Japan, as well as from Mooroco to Indonesia and the Philippines. It is encountered in both layered and wootz/bulat (Tartaric carbide-bearing steel/"true damascus"/crystaline steel), and as either whole blades or welded elements of them (side plates, in my experience). It may lock the layers together against delamination, and also can provide a seration effect at the edge.
tom hyle is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 06:34 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.