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Old 27th October 2019, 01:51 PM   #31
fernando
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batjka
... While gunners' stiletto did appear in the 17th century, stiletto as a weapon form came about much earlier, in the 15th century...

Yet the focus here would not be on the medieval weapon but on the 17th century gunners species, AKA fusetto/centoventi/regola, involved in pretended 'ilegal' conotations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by batjka
... I would love to see actual city statutes that prohibit stiletti as "dangerous weapons"...

As said, searching hard, here and there, we find some data ... lose or compact.
Expecting that you get hold of a decent translating engine ...

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stiletto

... fu considerato, nel corso dei secoli, quasi sempre come arma particolarmente insidiosa e, a fasi alterne, ne fu proibito il porto e, naturalmente, l'uso.
... Ancora oggi è considerato (come il pugnale) dalla legge italiana come "arma propria", la cui naturale designazione è cioè l'offesa alla persona, e il suo acquisto e detenzione richiedono una autorizzazione da parte della Questura di appartenenza e la successiva denuncia, al pari di qualsiasi arma da fuoco consentita.

Extracted from CATALOGO DELA ARMERIA REALE

... H. 110. — Fusétto (1) con lama triangolare lunga 0,450, larga 0,015, numerata da 1 a 120. Fornimento a croce di ferro forbito e manico affusolato di legno nero, con punte di ottone e di- schetti di avorio. (Arni. 15).
(1) Fusétto, arma insidiosa del genere dei pugnali, e della specie degli stiletti con i quali ha comuni le forme e le dimensioni. — Pugnali e fusetti senza foderi — 91 — . lnvent. Sale Monit. di X (1548), c. 10. — Dichiarando niuno possa tenervi ne Arcobugietti curti, ne Balestrini, ne fusetti, ne spade o pugnali fusellati, sotto la pena sopradetta della vita, ecc. — . Vincenzo Gonzaga, Grida (1592),
Ardi. 0 Gonz ., Raccol. Bastia , iv, 89. Questi fusetti degli esempj sono gli ordinar j usati a quel tempo, ossia il vocabolo era sinonimo di stiletto. 11 nostro fusetto invece, numerato da 1 a 120, è quello dei Bombardieri veneti presso i quali ne incominciò Fuso nel secolo xvii e forse non prima del 1661, come si può giudicare dal seguente documento. — Noi Proueditori airArteglieria. Facciamo saper a tutti che il Strenuo Antonio Spadon q. ra Lorenzo, s'attroua descritto per Caporale di Scolari Bombardieri di questa Città è stato da noi...., eletto per Caporale della Compagnia di Bombardieri di questa città Per tale dunque sarà d’ogni Scolaro Bombardiere riconosciuto et obbedito; Commettemo però a tutti et cadauno pubblico Ministro che debba lasciargli liberamente portare in questa città il Stillo Sagomato giusta alla Parte dell’Eccelso Conseglio di Xci : 15 Lug.° 1661; ecc. Dato daH’Ecc. mo Magistrato all’Arteglierie li 10 settembre 1798 . Originale nel Museo Correr , Raccol. Cicogna , Ms. di n° 861. A Venezia, il popolo lo chiamava — Centoventi — dall’ultimo numero segnato sull’arma. Nel mio libro Doc. ined ., ecc., alla nota 377 (p. 421 e seg.), e in un opuscoletto dal titolo— Stiletti o fusetti , ecc. — Torino 1865, Tip. Cassone e Comp ., cercai escludere
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Old 27th October 2019, 05:43 PM   #32
Jim McDougall
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As has been noted, it would take considerable research and probably some serious linguistic skills and resources to find 'hard copy' details on these presumed restrictions on weapons. It does seem that zealous writers on arms and armor in the 19th century created a labyrinth of lore and 'chestnuts' that have prevailed as accepted fact with weapons.

It is however, for me at least, a kind of driving force in looking further into these commonly held notions to learn more on the actual history of the weapons.

It seems that in the case of the 'gunners stiletto's' the case of the strange arcane graduations on the blades did come about in the 17th century, and that the distinct character of the extremely narrow blade defied any notable utility purpose. As such a blade was ideal and pragmatically pretty much restricted to one purpose obviously, and fear of assassins was understandably prevalent in these Italian states.

It does not seem that proscription of specific weapons would be issued in any sort of legal decree necessarily, and perhaps not formally. As with the case where the blade lengths on rapiers were restricted to specific length, or the wearing of swords entirely was restricted to persons of station, I cannot place actual worded decree …….but would find same interesting. While references allude to these restrictions, I have not seen cited material supporting any formal prohibition.

It may be that with the 'gunners stiletto' it was more a case of young men parading around with these purporting to be the highly regarded men who indeed manned the guns, therefore perhaps a matter of hubris rather than legal issue. The often indecipherable graduations on the blade 'looked' impressive, and would be impressive in such ploy.

Strictly a subjective suggestion pending others discovering documentation of ordinances outlawing these weapons, except of course, to the bonified gunners in the military service.
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Old 27th October 2019, 06:45 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
... While references allude to these restrictions, I have not seen cited material supporting any formal prohibition...

Yet it seems as not only a loose reference but an actual prohibition; a paragraph transcribed from a serious source and reporting to an early date, much before whatever mumbo jumbo may be written by dudes thirsty of fantasy.
If one cares to rehearse a rough translation (read interpretation) of this above pasted part, for one.

Dichiarando niuno possa tenervi ne Arcobugietti curti, ne Balestrini, ne fusetti, ne spade o pugnali fusellati, sotto la pena sopradetta della vita, ecc. — . Vincenzo Gonzaga, Grida (1592),

declaring that no one can keep neither short haquebuts, nor small crossbows, or fusetti, or swords or daggers with a fusetto form, under the aforementioned penalty of life, etc. -. Vincenzo Gonzaga, Grida (1592),

In this particular the 'legislator' contemplates not only the fusetti but those weapons easy to conceal and of lethal & incidious capacity.
Good enough for me .
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Old 27th October 2019, 08:25 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Yet it seems as not only a loose reference but an actual prohibition; a paragraph transcribed from a serious source and reporting to an early date, much before whatever mumbo jumbo may be written by dudes thirsty of fantasy.
If one cares to rehearse a rough translation (read interpretation) of this above pasted part, for one.

Dichiarando niuno possa tenervi ne Arcobugietti curti, ne Balestrini, ne fusetti, ne spade o pugnali fusellati, sotto la pena sopradetta della vita, ecc. — . Vincenzo Gonzaga, Grida (1592),

declaring that no one can keep neither short haquebuts, nor small crossbows, or fusetti, or swords or daggers with a fusetto form, under the aforementioned penalty of life, etc. -. Vincenzo Gonzaga, Grida (1592),

In this particular the 'legislator' contemplates not only the fusetti but those weapons easy to conceal and of lethal & incidious capacity.
Good enough for me .



Thank you Fernando, that was what I was looking for. So it would seem such proscriptions were officially present in the principality ruled by Gonzaga, how broad was the jurisdiction covered? It would seem this would add credibility to the use of faux graduated marks to legitimize the possession of fusetti.
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Old 28th October 2019, 03:12 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Thank you Fernando, that was what I was looking for. So it would seem such proscriptions were officially present in the principality ruled by Gonzaga, how broad was the jurisdiction covered? It would seem this would add credibility to the use of faux graduated marks to legitimize the possession of fusetti.

The Gonzagas were dukes of Mantua, which is only a comuna of Lombardia. Even though this is not far from the Veneto and Vicenzo having married one Leonor de Medici from Florence in second nuptiails would be no more than a coincidence.
The transcription i have pasted from the exhaustive CATALOGO DELA ARMERIA REALE, was one tat i found easy to deal with, translations and all.
Perhaps a more substantial part in relation with the current issue is this one below, that again i tried hard to fine tune the translation. But i think you can discern from it what is at stake; as also i hope Batjka approves all these interpretations.

" Questi fusetti degli esempj sono gli ordinar j usati a quel tempo, ossia il vocabolo era sinonimo di stiletto. 11 nostro fusetto invece, numerato da 1 a 120, è quello dei Bombardieri veneti presso i quali ne incominciò Fuso nel secolo XVII e forse non prima del 1661, come si può giudicare dal seguente documento. — Noi Proueditori air Arteglieria. Facciamo saper a tutti che il Strenuo Antonio Spadon q. ra Lorenzo, s'attroua descritto per Caporale di Scolari Bombardieri di questa Città è stato da noi eletto per Caporale della Compagnia di Bombardieri di questa città Per tale dunque sarà d’ogni Scolaro Bombardiere riconosciuto et obbedito; Commettemo però a tutti et cadauno pubblico Ministro che debba lasciargli liberamente portare in questa città il Stillo Sagomato giusta alla Parte dell’Eccelso Conseglio di Xci * : 15 Lug.° 1661

" These fuses of the examples are the ordinaries used at that time, that is, the word was synonymous with stiletto. Our fuse, on the other hand, numbered from 1 to 120, is that of the Venetian bombers where Fuso began in the seventeenth century and perhaps not before 1661, as can be judged from the following document. - Us Proueditori AirArteglieria. Let us all know that the strenuous Antonio Spadon q. ra Lorenzo, has been described for Caporale di Scolari Bombardieri of this City was with us ...., elected for Corporal of the Bombardier Company of this city Therefore for every Bomber apprentice will be recognized and obeyed; However, we commit to everybody and every public minister that should let him freely carry in this city the Shaped Stillo right to the Part of the Eminent Council of Xci: 15th July 1661

* Could this be the one and only Councel of the Ten ?
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Old 1st November 2019, 04:07 AM   #36
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Thanks very much Fernando, that was indeed, as I understand, the notorious Council of Ten (CX) in Venice. I looked back at notes from "Gunners Daggers" by Marcello Terenzi (Arms & Armor Annual, ed. Robert Held, 1973) that the gunners stiletto (also termed bombardiers daggers) were typically Venetian of 17th-18th c. The edict you kindly translated (of 1661) concerning a man named Antonio Spadone, was apparently last used in 1728, after which these stiletto seem to have ceased general use.

While it seems these were notably recognized as Venetian, Sir James Mann wrote on them in 1931 mentioning that they were known in Brescia from around 1570s with scales to measure bore and shot. The scale seems to measure 1 to 120 resulting in these measured examples termed 'un centoventi' meaning in Italian, 120. Mann, in Wallace Coll. (1962) shows three of these stilettos, primarily mid 17th c .
(all these notations were previously mentioned in Fernando's earlier posts but just reiterating here with review of the Terenzi article also prev. noted).

It seems there is consistent note to the use of these stilettos, with the distinct graduated scales, being used to 'spike' cannon touch holes.
A reference to these 'fusetti' being issued to cannoneers as a kind of badge of corps, which was apparently quite a honor. With such a status oriented weapon, it would seem highly regrettable and distasteful to use such a weapon in that manner. I suppose it would depend on the situation, but that such a weapon would be intended for such use seems odd, and the more pragmatic uses of measure and likely puncturing powder bags more probable. Some examples I have heard of had corrosion commensurate with the effects of powder noted.
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