Sword for ID

fernando · 17th January 2016, 09:31 PM

A local friend collector would like to have this sword identified.
No doubt about its production place; the sword back has the Klingenthal engraving, dated 1813. But the model doesn't appear to belong in the French armies. Could it be a contract for another country ? Anyone here familiar with this pattern ?

.

Gavin Nugent · 18th January 2016, 02:09 AM

Hi Fernando,

It is a French pattern for France.

Chistian Aries shows these swords in Volume one.
I have not translated the text but the specific subject heading is;

Sabre de la premiere compagnie des mousquetaires
premiere restauration troupe & officer.

Or in English

Sword of the first company of musketeers
first officer & restoration company.

This may also help.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musketeers_of_the_Guard

This is also a great help in understanding the swords;
http://www.lemondededartagnan.fr/SIT...res_chap08.htm

Gavin

fernando · 18th January 2016, 01:06 PM

Thanks for your input, Gavin.
Perhaps then a translation of the second line would read:
For troopers and officers of the First Restoration.
Given that the first French restoration took place briefly 1814-1815, one would be taken to assume that, the blade being marked 1813, should already existed (Klingenthal stock ?)and was later mounted in a musketeers guard ...
Thanks again.

Gavin Nugent · 18th January 2016, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Thanks for your input, Gavin.
Perhaps then a translation of the second line would read:
For troopers and officers of the First Restoration.
Given that the first French restoration took place briefly 1814-1815, one would be taken to assume that, the blade being marked 1813, should already existed (Klingenthal stock ?)and was later mounted in a musketeers guard ...
Thanks again.

Your spot on there Fernando.

I don't often see French swords under discussion here...let me know if you find more and I'll be happy to dig through the Aries series as it is largely unused with the weapons types I deal in.

Gavin

Jim McDougall · 18th January 2016, 04:33 PM

Gav,
Outstanding identification and referencing!!!!!!
This is quite literally TEXTBOOK response

You're right, the French stuff doesn't often come up here and very, very few out there have the corpus of key data by Aries.
Thank you for sharing the details here for future references, that's what this place is all about.

Jim

ulfberth · 18th January 2016, 07:14 PM

Hi Fernando,

in 2000 a troopers saber of the 1st compagnie mousquetaires du Roi was sold at auction for 45000 French franks without auction costs.
This is around 9000 Euro or aprox. 10.000 $ all costs included. This was an original I was there and could inspect the sword in my hands, the first compagnie held 255 men.
If you download the picture you can zoom in and see the detail and quality
In 2011 a good quality copy was sold at Hermann Historica for 1000 Euro without actions costs. lot 5231

http://www.hermann-historica.de/aukt...db=kat62_f.txt

kind regards

Ulfberth

Jim McDougall · 18th January 2016, 09:21 PM

Excellent perspective Ulfberth!!!
With these kinds of prices it is easy to imagine why there are a good number of interpretations of these rare French swords produced in recent times and important to examine them carefully as you describe.
It is really hard to do from photos.

fernando · 19th January 2016, 02:42 PM

Thank you Ulfberth,
I have browsed the net since i knew what this sword is about and also found originals with fabulous prices. The thing is i don't know wHether the example i posted is a reproduction; the blade being from a later date is a bad start. Besides, it seems as the originals had a Weyersberg blade and not a Klingenthal one. Also i see that copies are being made for a rather low price. I will have to hold this item in hands to try and appreciate its intrinsic value.

ulfberth · 19th January 2016, 03:02 PM

Hi Fernando,

If you zoom in to the picture of the guard you posted, look at the casting lines were the foliage is, rough structures and small holes are evidence from re-casting. More detailed pics would of course help to detect this more clearly.
Another difference are the Lilies , the are too wide on the base of the cross, on the saber of the Hutin collection the have a more narrow base, these are just a few small details that uncover hasty work fore economical reasons.

kind regards

Ulfberth

fernando · 19th January 2016, 04:06 PM

Thanks for the hints, ulfberth

ulfberth · 19th January 2016, 04:27 PM

Your welcome Fernando,
The fake in HH was made with an original blade of a 1854 model cuirassiers sabre.

The blade of the one you posted should look like the blades in the left pics, just compare the beginning of the fullers.
Some poorly made Indian copies have blades in the that if you bend them, they stay bended , these blade have a different color and look more like aluminum.

kind regards
Ulfberth

Gavin Nugent · 19th January 2016, 11:43 PM

Thank you Ulfberth, subtleties I did not at first pick up when viewing Aries.

With thanks

Gavin

ulfberth · 20th January 2016, 08:15 AM

Hello Gavin,

Your welcome, I only learned the fine subtleties after making mistakes.
All the type of sabres of Maison du Roi are of extreme high and fine quality, the casting is sharp and withouth faults and the old manner of fire gilding is of the best quality and looks totaly different from electrolytic gilding. Here is another one from the first restauration period from the Garde Du Corps Du Roi, I think the difference of the details are speaking for themselves
80 % of the fakes have electrolytic gilding.
I believe that the sabre of the thread is for sale on , armae... It has the same abrupt starting fullers, the same collor of blade, and dito broad lelies at the base of the cross of course here the casting faults are largely covered with electrolytic gilding
http://www.armae.com/contemporain/sa...son_du_Roi.htm

kind regards

Ulfberth

Valjhun · 25th January 2016, 04:51 PM

Caveat emptor!

The sword is a 100% repro without any doubt and it is not even a good one.

Always be suspicious of October 1813 dates. Used by the Discriminating General and some well known fakers. Currently not in catalogue this particular model, but I remember that was not so long ago.

It does not have the grip ferule - nearly every original french sword from that period have one!

Then again, there are too many turns in the grip - the fakes usually have about 15, original swords about 10 or 11.

And then again: details, details, details.

Take look at this thread, similar beast: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=cuirassier

fernando · 25th January 2016, 05:12 PM

Alright Matej, fully noted, thanks.

17th January 2016, 09:31 PM	#1
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,638	Sword for ID A local friend collector would like to have this sword identified. No doubt about its production place; the sword back has the Klingenthal engraving, dated 1813. But the model doesn't appear to belong in the French armies. Could it be a contract for another country ? Anyone here familiar with this pattern ? . Attached Images

18th January 2016, 02:09 AM	#2
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	It is French for France Hi Fernando, It is a French pattern for France. Chistian Aries shows these swords in Volume one. I have not translated the text but the specific subject heading is; Sabre de la premiere compagnie des mousquetaires premiere restauration troupe & officer. Or in English Sword of the first company of musketeers first officer & restoration company. This may also help. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musketeers_of_the_Guard This is also a great help in understanding the swords; http://www.lemondededartagnan.fr/SIT...res_chap08.htm Gavin Last edited by Gavin Nugent; 18th January 2016 at 02:21 AM.

18th January 2016, 07:14 PM	#6
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 382	Hi Fernando, in 2000 a troopers saber of the 1st compagnie mousquetaires du Roi was sold at auction for 45000 French franks without auction costs. This is around 9000 Euro or aprox. 10.000 $ all costs included. This was an original I was there and could inspect the sword in my hands, the first compagnie held 255 men. If you download the picture you can zoom in and see the detail and quality In 2011 a good quality copy was sold at Hermann Historica for 1000 Euro without actions costs. lot 5231 http://www.hermann-historica.de/aukt...db=kat62_f.txt kind regards Ulfberth Attached Images

19th January 2016, 03:02 PM	#9
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 382	Hi Fernando, If you zoom in to the picture of the guard you posted, look at the casting lines were the foliage is, rough structures and small holes are evidence from re-casting. More detailed pics would of course help to detect this more clearly. Another difference are the Lilies , the are too wide on the base of the cross, on the saber of the Hutin collection the have a more narrow base, these are just a few small details that uncover hasty work fore economical reasons. kind regards Ulfberth Attached Images

19th January 2016, 04:27 PM	#11
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 382	Your welcome Fernando, The fake in HH was made with an original blade of a 1854 model cuirassiers sabre. The blade of the one you posted should look like the blades in the left pics, just compare the beginning of the fullers. Some poorly made Indian copies have blades in the that if you bend them, they stay bended , these blade have a different color and look more like aluminum. kind regards Ulfberth Attached Images

18th January 2016, 01:06 PM	#3
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,638	Thanks for your input, Gavin. Perhaps then a translation of the second line would read: For troopers and officers of the First Restoration. Given that the first French restoration took place briefly 1814-1815, one would be taken to assume that, the blade being marked 1813, should already existed (Klingenthal stock ?)and was later mounted in a musketeers guard ... Thanks again.

18th January 2016, 04:33 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Gav, Outstanding identification and referencing!!!!!! This is quite literally TEXTBOOK response You're right, the French stuff doesn't often come up here and very, very few out there have the corpus of key data by Aries. Thank you for sharing the details here for future references, that's what this place is all about. Jim

18th January 2016, 09:21 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Excellent perspective Ulfberth!!! With these kinds of prices it is easy to imagine why there are a good number of interpretations of these rare French swords produced in recent times and important to examine them carefully as you describe. It is really hard to do from photos.

19th January 2016, 02:42 PM	#8
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,638	Thank you Ulfberth, I have browsed the net since i knew what this sword is about and also found originals with fabulous prices. The thing is i don't know wHether the example i posted is a reproduction; the blade being from a later date is a bad start. Besides, it seems as the originals had a Weyersberg blade and not a Klingenthal one. Also i see that copies are being made for a rather low price. I will have to hold this item in hands to try and appreciate its intrinsic value.

19th January 2016, 04:06 PM	#10
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,638	Thanks for the hints, ulfberth

19th January 2016, 11:43 PM	#12
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Thank you Ulfberth, subtleties I did not at first pick up when viewing Aries. With thanks Gavin

20th January 2016, 08:15 AM	#13
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 382	Hello Gavin, Your welcome, I only learned the fine subtleties after making mistakes. All the type of sabres of Maison du Roi are of extreme high and fine quality, the casting is sharp and withouth faults and the old manner of fire gilding is of the best quality and looks totaly different from electrolytic gilding. Here is another one from the first restauration period from the Garde Du Corps Du Roi, I think the difference of the details are speaking for themselves 80 % of the fakes have electrolytic gilding. I believe that the sabre of the thread is for sale on , armae... It has the same abrupt starting fullers, the same collor of blade, and dito broad lelies at the base of the cross of course here the casting faults are largely covered with electrolytic gilding http://www.armae.com/contemporain/sa...son_du_Roi.htm kind regards Ulfberth Attached Images

25th January 2016, 04:51 PM	#14
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Caveat emptor! The sword is a 100% repro without any doubt and it is not even a good one. Always be suspicious of October 1813 dates. Used by the Discriminating General and some well known fakers. Currently not in catalogue this particular model, but I remember that was not so long ago. It does not have the grip ferule - nearly every original french sword from that period have one! Then again, there are too many turns in the grip - the fakes usually have about 15, original swords about 10 or 11. And then again: details, details, details. Take look at this thread, similar beast: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=cuirassier

25th January 2016, 05:12 PM	#15
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,638	Alright Matej, fully noted, thanks.