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Old 24th September 2020, 07:45 AM   #31
A. G. Maisey
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Agreed.
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Old 25th September 2020, 04:12 AM   #32
Gavin Nugent
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This Kocet-Kocetan example is held in the Denpasar Museum.

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Old 26th September 2020, 10:27 PM   #33
A. G. Maisey
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This hilt is silver, it was acquired in Bali in 1974.

Some of us might call it a kocetkocetan, others might call it a kusia, some might say that kocetkocetan & kusia are the same , no difference, but then some people might be quite positive that there is a difference between a kocetkocetan & a kusia.

So if we were to belong to this last group of people who do believe that there is a difference, what might we name this particular hilt?
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Old 27th September 2020, 02:31 AM   #34
Anthony G.
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It is a beautiful silver hilt.

Btw, is kocetan considers a form of grasshopper, locust as I have impression the head does looks like a grasshopper. And Kusia considers as a beetle with the legs form?
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Old 27th September 2020, 08:18 AM   #35
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Just adding to the confusion
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Old 27th September 2020, 05:13 PM   #36
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Hello Gustav,

Quote:
Interestingly, the drawing of Nieuwenkamp from 1907 shows both forms, which are different indeed. In an older thread Fearn identified these forms as the pupa and adult beetle, two different stages of the same insect.

These are longicorn beetles (family Cerambycidae). I believe Nieuwenkamp just shows the pupa and the imago (adult) for illustrative purposes since the adult beetles are/were fairly well known to the general audience in Europe while coming across a pupa is certainly much rarer.

Both hilts in the figure clearly represent the pupa stage (and metamorphosis/transition seems to be the main religious message associated with this style of hilt): Only in the pupa stage does the wing stick out between the second and third pair of legs (i.e. partly covering the latter) and this is a consistent feature of every hilt of decent craftsmanship that I've come across. The antennae (the long "horns" of the beetle) of a cerambicyd pupa can be more or less curled (their relative length also depends on the species) and their head is very similar to the adult. [Just search for Cerambycidae AND pupa for some pics!]

Moreover, adult beetles spread their antennae to the side or in front - not backwards (the drawing was probably taken from an entomological museum specimen with folded back antennae for handling/security/space reasons).

Thus, I assume that differences in style of these hilts is not based on any biological difference but rather cultural developments and possibly loss of knowledge with later examples. There certainly seems to be a tendency with heads kinda resembling horses(?) more and more (including added non-insect ears and facial features).

Or is this another symbolism seeping in?

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Kai
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Old 27th September 2020, 05:21 PM   #37
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Hello Alan,

Quote:
Some of us might call it a kocetkocetan, others might call it a kusia, some might say that kocetkocetan & kusia are the same , no difference, but then some people might be quite positive that there is a difference between a kocetkocetan & a kusia.

So if we were to belong to this last group of people who do believe that there is a difference, what might we name this particular hilt?

Can we try to get a definition first or try to resolve, if there really is any difference in either style and/or origin/symbolism?

Gustav has quoted an early source from the colonial period which suggests that the name kusia was utilized in Klungkung; with Klungkung earlier occupying quite a chunk of Lombok, it does't not come as a surprise that this name was also known/utilized on Lombok, too. Are there possibly other Balinese kingdoms in which another name (or names) might had been utilized? (BTW, is kepompong also a Balinese word?)

I'm not really interested in any name game but would love to hear if there really are any stylistic differences that can be associated with any cultural/symbolic differences (or any related symbolism in Balinese religion or folklore) rather than reverse engineering from current collectors' POVs.

Regards,
Kai
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Old 27th September 2020, 09:12 PM   #38
A. G. Maisey
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There are multiple variations of the kocetkocetan/kusia hilt, the symbolism is of transformation:- man > spirit > rebirth; evil > good; good > evil; child > adult.

Read different authors, speak to different people you will get different interpretations.

Whether something is kocetkocetan or kusia or whether they are both the same is subject to opinion too. BBK makes the differentiation subject to the presence of tusks.

The overall style is Balinese, Balinese occupation of Lombok was an extension of Balinese culture, Balinese in Lombok used the Balinese language for communication. The Sasak people did not adopt Balinese style, the Balinese people did not adopt Sasak style. How can "kusia" be associated with Sasak people?

The word "kepompong" is Indonesian, it means "pupa" or "chrysalis".

The pupa form of an insect symbolises the time of change.

Just because some source of information is older does not make it correct. In fact, insofar as the societies of SE Asia are concerned, old information provided by anybody must be looked at very carefully, and in reality, the same applies to recent information. If you ask a question of people in many of these societies you will get anything other than an accurate response.

The word used for the same object can vary constantly in Bali, just as it can in Jawa. Move from one place to another, usage & dialects can change. This is not unique to only SE Asia.

Last edited by A. G. Maisey : 28th September 2020 at 12:02 AM. Reason: correction of error
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Old 27th September 2020, 11:21 PM   #39
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Hello Alan,

I did not mention Sasak culture/language/whatever?

If kepompong is Indonesian only as expected, it is clearly modern usage.

That the word kusia was known in Klungkung for such a type of hilt in the early 20th century seems to be a rather convincing bit of trivia that would be rather hard to get wrong. This seems to suggest that it isn't limited to Lombok (as expected from the close ties for the Balinese population on [parts of] both islands).


Quote:
Whether something is kocetkocetan or kusia or whether they are both the same is subject to opinion too. EK makes the differentiation subject to the presence of tusks.

Ok, let's assume that this is based on a genuine Balinese source. So, what do tusks signify/symbolize in Balinese religion/culture?

Regards,
Kai
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Old 28th September 2020, 12:07 AM   #40
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Kai, I most sincerely apologise for taking an approach in my post #38 that was not limited only to you.

The discussion relating to this hilt form has drawn a number of factors into consideration, and although my response was addressed to you, the way in which I phrased that response was intended to cover the field of discussion.

I acknowledge that this was an error on my part, and I have now corrected that error, as well another error that gave EK as the source for the "tusk" differentiation.

I'm sorry, but I am not able to assume that the point of differentiation made in BBK is either correct or incorrect, I only wish to comment that this point of differentiation has been put forward.

As to "tusks" having any cultural significance in this context I cannot say. The word used that is translated as "tusk" is not a tusk as a native English speaker might consider a tusk to be. As I noted, the use of "tusk" (ie, "taring") is Neka's, not mine.

Perhaps, as with many concepts that relate to the keris, and indeed, to many cultural or religious matters in other cultures, it might be necessary to adopt a way of thinking that permits some sort of understanding of exactly what a particular representation of something might represent. Insofar as Javanese & Balinese societies are concerned, the interpretation can easily encompass more than a single one.
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Old 14th October 2020, 08:06 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean
Just adding to the confusion


The relatively rare hilt form, known as a kocet-kocetan, is thought to have been reserved exclusively for priests of the Brahmin caste. It is a representation of Batara Karpa, a Balinese mythological deity in the form of a beetle, born of a union of Resi Kasyapa, the primordial father of the gods and Dewi Winata who also gave birth to the god Garuda. Interestingly this mythology is exclusively Balinese and is not known in Indian Hindu myth.
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Old 14th October 2020, 11:14 AM   #42
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Old 15th October 2020, 01:56 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey


Thank you
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