A Little Help Maybe ?

Rick · 16th April 2008, 06:52 PM

Can anyone offer an interpretation of the symbolism and translate the script on this old pendok ?

Thanks

Henk · 16th April 2008, 09:39 PM

Never seen it in this way before. It looks like a peacock. Unfortunately I can't read nor translate the characters

kai · 16th April 2008, 09:42 PM

Hello Rick,

Seems to be a peacock to me.

Regards,
Kai

ferrylaki · 17th April 2008, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Rick,

Seems to be a peacock to me.

Regards,
Kai

read "slaka"
the meaning: ???

A. G. Maisey · 17th April 2008, 03:27 AM

I cannot read Javanese script, or more correctly, I cannot read it if it varies from textbook execution of letters.

However, I do know the meaning of "salaka"---which I would guess can also be given as "slaka", it means "silver", the metal, not the colour.

A. G. Maisey · 17th April 2008, 09:26 AM

Ah, the beauty and complexity of the Javanese language!

I sent off a couple of emails to contacts in Solo with that pic and the question.

Seems we can read this in more than one way. I've got several possibilities back so far, and am waiting for at least one more. One of the possibilities I have is "slaka", so we've got another vote for Ferry's reading.

Rick · 17th April 2008, 06:47 PM

Thanks Gentlemen .

I hope that a translation can be found for the script .

Kai, I can see the tailfeathers and spread wings; it's just the center portion of the design . I can't see a head or beak in that area and what's with the snail like curleyque; could that represent a shell?

kai · 17th April 2008, 11:42 PM

Hello Rick,

Quote:

I can see the tailfeathers and spread wings; it's just the center portion of the design . I can't see a head or beak in that area and what's with the snail like curleyque; could that represent a shell?

There are 2 eyes visible in the center; the small triangle between them should represent the beak.

Regards,
Kai

karset · 18th April 2008, 06:38 AM

is there any conection with kingdom name Salakanagara,west java,,?.
maybe too old since salakanagara was around 150-200 AD.
but the spiral shape at the peacock body remain me of salakanagara.
sory, for this opinion.

asomotif · 18th April 2008, 12:43 PM

Would pictures of the complete pendok be helpful ?

Rick · 18th April 2008, 09:36 PM

Maybe .........

Raden Usman Djogja · 19th April 2008, 12:54 AM

slaka = saloka = proverb = symbol
perhaps, the word is "slaka" is just to stress that the picture above the word is a symbol (or brand).

regards,
OeS

A. G. Maisey · 21st April 2008, 12:52 AM

I have now received a reply from my third informant. This person is a man in his sixties who is regarded world-wide as a premier authority on the keris, and he holds a high rank within the keraton Surakarta.I consider his knowledge in this matter of Javanese language to be beyond question. Here is his answer:-

-----tulisan jawa itu berbunyi sloko, artinya perak----

------that Javanese writing has the sound "sloko", its meaning is silver----

This little exercise demonstrates very well some of the difficulties with the Javanese language.

The honocoroko alphabet , like any alphabet, is used to represent in a written form certain sounds.
When the Dutch introduced the Roman alphabet to Jawa in the 19th century, the honocoroko alphabet was gradually Romanised,and the symbols were forced into the framework of the standard western alphabet.The sounds that were used with this alphabet were the sounds that the Dutch give to the letters of the alphabet.
In 1972, both the alphabet used to write Bahasa Indonesia, and Javanese were given the sound values of the English language, so in Javanese (and in Bahasa Indonesia) we have two possible spellings when a word is written in Roman script: the pre-1972 spelling, and the post-1972 spelling

In reading Javanese written in honocoroko it is apparently extraordinarily difficult to read just a single word, or even several unrelated words taken out of the context of a sentence. I have been told by several people that the way old Javanese script is read is that first you must gain a broad sense of what the passage of writing is about, then you read the words, and where several possibilities for interpretation exist, you use the interpretation that is the best fit with the sense of the passage.So, in the case of a single, isolated word, there is no point of reference, and more than one interpretation can exist.

Then there is another little peculiarity of Javanese, it is what I believe linguists refer to as a "non-standardised" language. In other words, there can be many sub-vocabularies within the broad range of the language, that may or may not be mutually intelligible to all speakers of the language, additionally, letters can be removed or added to a spelling, provided the spoken rendition of the word is correct.This characteristic of sub-vocabularies is distinct from the heirarchically structured usual three levels of formal Javanese.

On top of this we have a problem with the Javanese "o" (old spelling), "a" (new spelling).

One of the sounds represented by "a" in the new spelling was originally written as an "a" with a dot over it. The sound is unique, and really does not exist in English, it like a short "o" that is articulated at the back of the tongue. So when the new spelling was introduced this "a" was written with a dot over it. But typewriters do not have the ability to place this dot over the "a", so everybody just had to know when an "a" was pronounced as "a", and when it was pronounced as the old "o".

So, if we look at our word under discussion, I had three answers from three speakers of Javanese, all from Solo, and all able to read hanocoroko script.

One read it as a nonsense word with no meaning, and offered the explanation that it was a word that meant something to the original owner of the pendok but was meaningless to everybody else.

One offered the explanation that the word was "slaka", and interpreted this word as "ankle bracelet", which it may be in some sub-dialect, but in Javanese as usually spoken in Solo it is not, the word for an "ankle bracelet" is "binggel".

The reply from my most knowledgeable informant I have given above; he has written the word "sloko", rather than "slaka", but the pronunciation is the same, he has just used the old spelling.

I learnt this word not as "slaka", but as "salaka", the "a" has been added between the "s" and the "l", but in pronunciation both would sound the same to a western ear, and that pronunciation would be "sloko".

I have checked the word in three dictionaries, "salaka" is the seemingly authorised spelling, "slaka" is given as a variation.The meaning of both words is "silver".

I'm sorry Raden Usman, but "slaka" does not equal "saloka"; "saloka" is an entirely different word , and yes, it does mean a proverb, or a maxim, or a metaphor, but I doubt that it could be understood as a symbol, the usual word for "symbol", is "lambang", or in the case of a trademark, "cap". It is possible to render the honocoroko as "slaka", or as "sloko", the pronunciation of both these spellings is "sloko"; "sloko", and "slaka" can both be spelt with the addition of another vowel between the "s" and the "l", but we cannot render the honocoroko for "sloko" as "saloko", this word uses different honocoroko characters.

There is your answer Rick. Ferry's reading was correct, and the meaning of that reading is "silver".
I rather suspect that the combination of the symbol, plus "silver", may represent a trademark, a guarantee of quality.

But the interesting thing about this thread is this:- it has demonstrated the not inconsiderable difficulty there is in obtaining an accurate reading of the old honocoroko script.
My grandchildren recently moved back to Solo from Jakarta. The eldest one is 12 years old, and in the first year of highschool. In Jakarta honocoroko is not taught, and his Javanese language skills are very basic, however, in Solo Javanese and honocoroko are still taught in lower highschool. Because he has a very, very poor Javanese vocab, he has enormous difficulty in trying to read honocoroko.

Is it any wonder that Bahasa Indonesia is gradually replacing Javanese, and all the other original languages of the Indonesian Archipelago? A few years ago a professor at Sebelas Maret University in Solo went on record with his opinion that within a generation or two, Javanese will be a dead language.

Kiai Carita · 23rd April 2008, 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I have now received a reply from my third informant. This person is a man in his sixties who is regarded world-wide as a premier authority on the keris, and he holds a high rank within the keraton Surakarta.I consider his knowledge in this matter of Javanese language to be beyond question. Here is his answer:-

-----tulisan jawa itu berbunyi sloko, artinya perak----

------that Javanese writing has the sound "sloko", its meaning is silver----

This little exercise demonstrates very well some of the difficulties with the Javanese language.

The honocoroko alphabet , like any alphabet, is used to represent in a written form certain sounds.....

A few years ago a professor at Sebelas Maret University in Solo went on record with his opinion that within a generation or two, Javanese will be a dead language.

Pak Alan,

Your respected source is correct, but the current spelling should be slaka rather than sloko. The letters are text-book and there can be no confusion in the reading.

The spelling should be hanacaraka rather than honocoroko. The O sound in Jawa script is written using the "taling-tarung".

As for basa Jawa dying, I don't think that is so. It is evolving rather than dying, bringing in Indonesian and English words and sheding and mixing the higher levels of krama madya and krama inggil.

The process now is that the low and intimate level of ngoko (note, I can't write ngaka for this word because it is an O sound) is becoming more dominant and mistakes in krama are much more acceptable, even in formal occasions.

If krama dies it will be fine, it is a relatively new language anyway and it goes against egalitarian values of the curent age.

Nuwun sewu,

Bram

A. G. Maisey · 23rd April 2008, 06:06 AM

G'day Bram,

yes, of course you are right in respect of the spelling, as I have already indicated in my previous post, however, my friend has said:- "---the sound is sloko---", he has not said that it should be spelt that way, and the sound is "sloko", it is not "slaka".

You are Javanese, and educated, you know when "a" should be pronounced "o", but any person from outside Jawa who reads "a" will pronounce "a". I understand full well the conventions of the current spelling, but I prefer to use old spelling where that will give a more accurate rendition for the western reader, thus I spell "warangka" as "wrongko", and "ganja" as "gonjo", and so on. In fact, I have been expressly warned by several people in Solo never to use the current spelling for gonjo, and I am sure you will understand the reason why.

As to whether the letters are textbook, or not, it depends upon one's textbook. I have several that I refer to, and to my untutored eye, the letters on this pendok can be interpreted in several ways. It would appear that at least two of my Solo contacts, both men in their forties, one associated with the kraton, had some similar problems. To you, the letters are textbook, but clearly your level of knowledge in this field is far greater than the level of knowledge possessed by those to whom I referred this matter. As for myself, well, I have already said that I cannot read honocoroko--- but using my text books I can often match characters in printed works and glean a meaning.I very often cannot do the same with handwriting.

The opinion that Javanese is a dying language is not mine, it is an opinion given by an academic in this field of language. Yes, again you are correct, the Javanese language is currently in a state of flux, and there can be no doubt that Javanese as Basa Daerah will always exist, but I believe that the academic who floated the "dying language" opinion was probably talking about formal Javanese as it has been spoken in the recent past.As we are both aware, any language that does not change dies, Javanese is changing, thus it will not die but its form in a few years time will be markedly different to the form of the recent past.

I would suggest that formal Javanese is already on its death bed. I know several people who send their children to teachers out in the desas to be taught correct Javanese. Why? Because they have been unable to find competent teachers closer to home.Even a few years back when my daughter was married, she married into a slightly aristocratic family, and in preparation for life within this family she had to be taught Krama Inggil, because she was unable to speak it. That's about 15 or so years ago now. (yes, yes, I know, my spelling is inconsistent)

However, all these niceties concerning the Javanese language have little to do with what Rick initially asked for:- a translation. And he's got that.

With respect,

Alan.

16th April 2008, 06:52 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,261	A Little Help Maybe ? Can anyone offer an interpretation of the symbolism and translate the script on this old pendok ? Thanks Attached Images

18th April 2008, 06:38 AM	#9
karset Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 48	salaka,,, is there any conection with kingdom name Salakanagara,west java,,?. maybe too old since salakanagara was around 150-200 AD. but the spiral shape at the peacock body remain me of salakanagara. sory, for this opinion.

18th April 2008, 09:36 PM	#11
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,261	Maybe ......... Attached Images

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16th April 2008, 09:39 PM	#2
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Never seen it in this way before. It looks like a peacock. Unfortunately I can't read nor translate the characters

16th April 2008, 09:42 PM	#3
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,215	Hello Rick, Seems to be a peacock to me. Regards, Kai

17th April 2008, 03:27 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	I cannot read Javanese script, or more correctly, I cannot read it if it varies from textbook execution of letters. However, I do know the meaning of "salaka"---which I would guess can also be given as "slaka", it means "silver", the metal, not the colour.

17th April 2008, 09:26 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	Ah, the beauty and complexity of the Javanese language! I sent off a couple of emails to contacts in Solo with that pic and the question. Seems we can read this in more than one way. I've got several possibilities back so far, and am waiting for at least one more. One of the possibilities I have is "slaka", so we've got another vote for Ferry's reading.

17th April 2008, 06:47 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,261	Thanks Gentlemen . I hope that a translation can be found for the script . Kai, I can see the tailfeathers and spread wings; it's just the center portion of the design . I can't see a head or beak in that area and what's with the snail like curleyque; could that represent a shell?

18th April 2008, 12:43 PM	#10
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,221	Would pictures of the complete pendok be helpful ?

19th April 2008, 12:54 AM	#12
Raden Usman Djogja Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 199	slaka = saloka = proverb = symbol perhaps, the word is "slaka" is just to stress that the picture above the word is a symbol (or brand). regards, OeS

21st April 2008, 12:52 AM	#13
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	I have now received a reply from my third informant. This person is a man in his sixties who is regarded world-wide as a premier authority on the keris, and he holds a high rank within the keraton Surakarta.I consider his knowledge in this matter of Javanese language to be beyond question. Here is his answer:- -----tulisan jawa itu berbunyi sloko, artinya perak---- ------that Javanese writing has the sound "sloko", its meaning is silver---- This little exercise demonstrates very well some of the difficulties with the Javanese language. The honocoroko alphabet , like any alphabet, is used to represent in a written form certain sounds. When the Dutch introduced the Roman alphabet to Jawa in the 19th century, the honocoroko alphabet was gradually Romanised,and the symbols were forced into the framework of the standard western alphabet.The sounds that were used with this alphabet were the sounds that the Dutch give to the letters of the alphabet. In 1972, both the alphabet used to write Bahasa Indonesia, and Javanese were given the sound values of the English language, so in Javanese (and in Bahasa Indonesia) we have two possible spellings when a word is written in Roman script: the pre-1972 spelling, and the post-1972 spelling In reading Javanese written in honocoroko it is apparently extraordinarily difficult to read just a single word, or even several unrelated words taken out of the context of a sentence. I have been told by several people that the way old Javanese script is read is that first you must gain a broad sense of what the passage of writing is about, then you read the words, and where several possibilities for interpretation exist, you use the interpretation that is the best fit with the sense of the passage.So, in the case of a single, isolated word, there is no point of reference, and more than one interpretation can exist. Then there is another little peculiarity of Javanese, it is what I believe linguists refer to as a "non-standardised" language. In other words, there can be many sub-vocabularies within the broad range of the language, that may or may not be mutually intelligible to all speakers of the language, additionally, letters can be removed or added to a spelling, provided the spoken rendition of the word is correct.This characteristic of sub-vocabularies is distinct from the heirarchically structured usual three levels of formal Javanese. On top of this we have a problem with the Javanese "o" (old spelling), "a" (new spelling). One of the sounds represented by "a" in the new spelling was originally written as an "a" with a dot over it. The sound is unique, and really does not exist in English, it like a short "o" that is articulated at the back of the tongue. So when the new spelling was introduced this "a" was written with a dot over it. But typewriters do not have the ability to place this dot over the "a", so everybody just had to know when an "a" was pronounced as "a", and when it was pronounced as the old "o". So, if we look at our word under discussion, I had three answers from three speakers of Javanese, all from Solo, and all able to read hanocoroko script. One read it as a nonsense word with no meaning, and offered the explanation that it was a word that meant something to the original owner of the pendok but was meaningless to everybody else. One offered the explanation that the word was "slaka", and interpreted this word as "ankle bracelet", which it may be in some sub-dialect, but in Javanese as usually spoken in Solo it is not, the word for an "ankle bracelet" is "binggel". The reply from my most knowledgeable informant I have given above; he has written the word "sloko", rather than "slaka", but the pronunciation is the same, he has just used the old spelling. I learnt this word not as "slaka", but as "salaka", the "a" has been added between the "s" and the "l", but in pronunciation both would sound the same to a western ear, and that pronunciation would be "sloko". I have checked the word in three dictionaries, "salaka" is the seemingly authorised spelling, "slaka" is given as a variation.The meaning of both words is "silver". I'm sorry Raden Usman, but "slaka" does not equal "saloka"; "saloka" is an entirely different word , and yes, it does mean a proverb, or a maxim, or a metaphor, but I doubt that it could be understood as a symbol, the usual word for "symbol", is "lambang", or in the case of a trademark, "cap". It is possible to render the honocoroko as "slaka", or as "sloko", the pronunciation of both these spellings is "sloko"; "sloko", and "slaka" can both be spelt with the addition of another vowel between the "s" and the "l", but we cannot render the honocoroko for "sloko" as "saloko", this word uses different honocoroko characters. There is your answer Rick. Ferry's reading was correct, and the meaning of that reading is "silver". I rather suspect that the combination of the symbol, plus "silver", may represent a trademark, a guarantee of quality. But the interesting thing about this thread is this:- it has demonstrated the not inconsiderable difficulty there is in obtaining an accurate reading of the old honocoroko script. My grandchildren recently moved back to Solo from Jakarta. The eldest one is 12 years old, and in the first year of highschool. In Jakarta honocoroko is not taught, and his Javanese language skills are very basic, however, in Solo Javanese and honocoroko are still taught in lower highschool. Because he has a very, very poor Javanese vocab, he has enormous difficulty in trying to read honocoroko. Is it any wonder that Bahasa Indonesia is gradually replacing Javanese, and all the other original languages of the Indonesian Archipelago? A few years ago a professor at Sebelas Maret University in Solo went on record with his opinion that within a generation or two, Javanese will be a dead language.

23rd April 2008, 06:06 AM	#15
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	G'day Bram, yes, of course you are right in respect of the spelling, as I have already indicated in my previous post, however, my friend has said:- "---the sound is sloko---", he has not said that it should be spelt that way, and the sound is "sloko", it is not "slaka". You are Javanese, and educated, you know when "a" should be pronounced "o", but any person from outside Jawa who reads "a" will pronounce "a". I understand full well the conventions of the current spelling, but I prefer to use old spelling where that will give a more accurate rendition for the western reader, thus I spell "warangka" as "wrongko", and "ganja" as "gonjo", and so on. In fact, I have been expressly warned by several people in Solo never to use the current spelling for gonjo, and I am sure you will understand the reason why. As to whether the letters are textbook, or not, it depends upon one's textbook. I have several that I refer to, and to my untutored eye, the letters on this pendok can be interpreted in several ways. It would appear that at least two of my Solo contacts, both men in their forties, one associated with the kraton, had some similar problems. To you, the letters are textbook, but clearly your level of knowledge in this field is far greater than the level of knowledge possessed by those to whom I referred this matter. As for myself, well, I have already said that I cannot read honocoroko--- but using my text books I can often match characters in printed works and glean a meaning.I very often cannot do the same with handwriting. The opinion that Javanese is a dying language is not mine, it is an opinion given by an academic in this field of language. Yes, again you are correct, the Javanese language is currently in a state of flux, and there can be no doubt that Javanese as Basa Daerah will always exist, but I believe that the academic who floated the "dying language" opinion was probably talking about formal Javanese as it has been spoken in the recent past.As we are both aware, any language that does not change dies, Javanese is changing, thus it will not die but its form in a few years time will be markedly different to the form of the recent past. I would suggest that formal Javanese is already on its death bed. I know several people who send their children to teachers out in the desas to be taught correct Javanese. Why? Because they have been unable to find competent teachers closer to home.Even a few years back when my daughter was married, she married into a slightly aristocratic family, and in preparation for life within this family she had to be taught Krama Inggil, because she was unable to speak it. That's about 15 or so years ago now. (yes, yes, I know, my spelling is inconsistent) However, all these niceties concerning the Javanese language have little to do with what Rick initially asked for:- a translation. And he's got that. With respect, Alan.