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22nd September 2017, 08:27 PM | #1 | |||
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Hello Leif,
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I'm also not sure whether the thumb rest is an essential feature of mid-19th c. (and earlier) pieces. Nor how long this feature was being made... Quote:
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While the fittings do look younger, I would not be surprised if both blades were 19th century examples. Regards, Kai |
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23rd September 2017, 05:44 AM | #2 |
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Here are a couple of older ones for comparison. They were exhibited in the History of Steel Exhibition in Macau.
The one without a scabbard was said to be pre-1900, and the other one is probably 19th C. also. Plate 12 (no. 6) from Krieger's treatise on Filipino weapons (viewable on this site) also shows an older example similar to the HOS examples. Both of yours are in the older style, and could have been be made in the 19th C. as Kai suggests. One of the distinguishing features of the old style was a concave spine of the blade, as seen in the HOS examples, whereas the more recent examples have a straight spine and often a straight tang (in line with the blade) rather than the angled tang seen in older examples. The more recent, altered alignment of the hilt in relation to the blade makes them a less effective "chopper" and more suited to stabbing or slicing. Ian. . |
23rd September 2017, 09:55 AM | #3 |
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Hello Leif,
two very nice examples, congrats! Like Ian I would agree with your classification but I think that in the second group can be found also 19th century examples. Regards, Detlef |
23rd September 2017, 10:04 AM | #4 | |
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Quote:
I am not really sure that this is a good indicator for old/antique examples, it may be correct for some but not for all, see for example the family picture from Leif (the thread he provided in post #1), there are a few examples shown of clearly later manufacture with a concave spine, see picture. Regards, Detlef |
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23rd September 2017, 04:23 PM | #5 |
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Hi Detlef:
Good point. What I should have said was that all of the old style (19th C.) examples I have seen had a concave spine on the blade, downward angled tang, and a "thumb rest" at forte. This compares to what many of the more recent examples have evolved (degraded?) to, with a straighter spine, less of an angle between the tang and blade, and no "thumb rest." There are intermediate forms that retain some of the older features, such as a more acutely angled tang or a concave spine of the blade. The "thumb rest" seems to have been the first feature to be omitted, and is uncommon on these knives after WWII (I would not say disappeared after WWII based on my comments above). I think the next to go was probably the concave spine of the blade and lastly the angled tang. The latter features probably reflect less skill or time required in making the knife. The appearance of examples with slender blades (as shown in several of Leif's examples) also seems to date from the WWII period and later, and again suggest a use more for stabbing and slicing rather than chopping. As far as edge treatment on these knives, I think quenching may be the main method used on more recent examples and perhaps edge insertion on older ones. I don't recall many inserted edges on more recent examples that I have seen. Some of the blades, even clearly older examples (of which I've handled maybe 20 or so), seem to be monosteeel although most were not etched to reveal any lamination so it's hard to be sure. One of the HOS examples above seems to have some lamination. Many of the more recent knives, while perhaps lacking the skill and time that went into making the older style, are still very sturdy knives that cut well and would serve their original purpose. The wide variety of hilts seen on more recent examples came largely during and after WWII, when they were originally marketed to U.S. troops. Ian. Last edited by Ian; 23rd September 2017 at 04:51 PM. |
23rd September 2017, 05:13 PM | #6 |
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Hi Ian,
yes, agree complete with you! And thank you for your detailed answer. Regards, Detlef |
24th September 2017, 05:09 PM | #7 |
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Thank you all for your comments.
One question. How does an "inserted edge" differ from "San Mai" blade construction, or a "lamminated" blade? Thanks, Leif |
24th September 2017, 08:19 PM | #8 | |
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Good question.
San mai is an inserted edge. Basically, a hardened piece is inserted between two softer pieces to create a tougher cutting edge. A laminated blade usually refers to the blade having been made by heating and folding the steel and pounding it out, then folding again, etc. Using different metal layers can create striking patterns, so it is sometimes called "pattern welded." This differs from "wootz" in which the pattern results from crystallization of its components after iron and various additives are heated in a crucible to make the steel. Both laminated and wootz blades can have hardened edges produced by differential heating of the edge to alter the crystalline structure. That's my completely lay explanation. We have expert metallurgists here who can give you way, way more details and there are several essays on wootz and steel-making techniques elsewhere on this web site. For example, see here for Lee's discussion of pattern welding and here for Ann's discussion of wootz (pulad) blades and techniques. Quote:
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