Osborn's G Stamp

[Bryce]

Thanks GC,

It seems odd that Bolton who made so many swords for the American market didn't seem to make any for the British market?

Is it possible he sourced his blades from Osborn?

I don't have a copy of Mowbray. Does he shed any more light on this?

In regards to the German theory, what about these sword blades could be considered as "Legally Protected"? Henry Osborn together with John Gaspard Le Marchant is credited with designing the 1796 cavalry swords, but not the spadroons that also carry the G stamp.


Cheers,

Bryce

[Bryce]

GC you may be interested in this G stamped Osborn that I own. These are the dealers pics as I have never gotten round to photographing it myself.

Cheers,

Bryce

[Bryce]

G'day GC,

Looking thru those SFI threads you posted it seems that the book "The American Eagle Pommel Sword" by Mowbray may shed some real light on this subject. Apparently the book contains correspondence between the Upson Brothers who imported swords into America and one of their suppliers Osborn and Gunby? I don't have a copy of this book, so if anyone does, can you please post a synopsis of what it contains?


Cheers,

Bryce

[Bryce]

I have tried to find a sword on the net marked to Richard Bolton with a G stamp, without success. Plenty of G stamped swords marked to Wells & Co, Richard Upson & Co etc who we know imported swords from Osborn. Can someone please help me out here and post a picture of a Bolton marked sword with a G stamp?


Cheers,

Bryce

[Hotspur]

Originally Posted by Bryce

I have tried to find a sword on the net marked to Richard Bolton with a G stamp, without success. Plenty of G stamped swords marked to Wells & Co, Richard Upson & Co etc who we know imported swords from Osborn. Can someone please help me out here and post a picture of a Bolton marked sword with a G stamp?


Cheers,

Bryce

I won't go out of my way to disagree, or correct your research but will point again to
American Eagle Pommel Sword: The Early Years 1794-1830
by Andrew Mowbray
SBN-10: 0917218361
ISBN-13: 978-0917218361

and
US Naval Officers: Their Swords and Dirks
by Peter Tuite
ASIN: B01JXOXXSE

The former of which shows both an example, along with a chapter on the Bolton eagles as well as an additional section with correspondence between the Upson brothers and Bolton regarding contracts to be fulfilled. I will not abstract further from that title, as the book is not that expensive and with little effort, previews are available through google books and Amazon "look inside"

I could point to other authors as well, who are working with the same sources, as well as already having provided to you supporting information on the subject that does seem to point to the G and GG being trade marks for German made blades.

Just as you are not going to find Osborn and Bolton marked swords then marked by Upson, or Wells (or indeed either Spies or Wolfe) the trade to US retailers not exactly a mystery. There is a certain point at which the most common or obvious explanation is most likely the correct assessment. Assuming G marked blades swords as Gunby, or Gill, less supported or recognized by those of us that have delved deeper. In the end, I suppose you are welcome to believe it is specific to Gunby while the evidence seems to prove otherwise.

Somewhere in my vast archive of images containing thousands of sword examples, I could find examples marked to Osborn that match/mirror the Upson etched and blued blades but that doesn't explain the association any better than simply suggesting buying the Mowbray book, then your being able to absorb more than just the Upson and Bolton contracts. It is an excellent book that has less need for amendments than many.

I had made the same mistakes in the beginning with expecting the internet to offer all the available information. While it is true at times that one can surpass modern takes on information (see Bazelon basically re-publishing a Horstmann history), it is usually today's authors that have tried to be all inclusive. Don't rely on internet searches if interested in a particular aspect of a missing link. Don't avoid reading beyond discussion boards and do look at old and available texts by searching Google books.

Best
GC

[Hotspur]

Originally Posted by Bryce

GC you may be interested in this G stamped Osborn that I own. These are the dealers pics as I have never gotten round to photographing it myself.

Cheers,

Bryce

That is a fine sword and is more of interest to me as having a a deep bright etch than it having a G stamp. I will counter with with a Bolton eagle type with a bright etch and similar characteristics, which would more support furbishers sourcing the trade at large than being blademakers themselves (once again pointing to the G stamp as a trade mark not specific to Gunby, or Osborn). I will mention that this is not a sword I own, but rather part of my image archive. I have one section dedicated to mostly eagles and have uploaded it for public access.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...dP?usp=sharing

Cheers
GC

[Bryce]

G'day GC,

I posted that sword because I thought you may have been able to tell me something about the motifs on the blade, not as part of the discussion on the G stamp. It is the only sword in my collection with American inspired blade decoration, as my interest is mainly in British swords.


Back to G stamps, I am not claiming that G stamps were associated with Gunby, but rather Henry Osborn. 100% of Osborn marked officer swords have a G stamp. If a G stamped blade is marked to someone other than Osborn, it can be shown that they are retailers rather than manufacturers of sword blades. Henry Osborn made his own blades, he didn't import them. Attached is an extract from the "The Literary Panorama Vol IV" dated September 1808, extolling the virtues of Osborn blades over imported German ones.

Cheers,

Bryce

[Hotspur]

Thanks for the attachment. It might hold more water as to Osborn being responsible for the G stamp if it was mentioned in the attached article.

I am reminded of a 14th century edict regarding armour and arms quality with the inent of disallowing Flemish goods to favor England production but with the demand quality be met. At the same time, barrels of blades entering London and being dispersed throughout Britain to be furbished in country.

I see no proof of all Osborn officer sword blades (and why would it be only officer's blades?) bearing the G stamp. Nor the mark exclusive to his wares (you do make a point he may be supplying others). The German resident not mentioned in that article I have to assume was either JJ Runkel (who was called out for his German blades) or the S&K agent. Whomever it was, was still selling blades to English furbishers and trade flourishing despite this report.

1808 is a rather late date, in regard to several of the patterns that turn up with the G stamp and not marked to Osborn. If the G stamp is to be assumed to exclusive to blades made through his production, where is the smoking gun? Why a G? Why were some marked GG?

There might be a better argument that blister/shear steel blades were phasing out as cast steel blades were coming in. Despite this report attached that Osborn was in fact producing these blades, I'd be interested in seeing more about his mills and foundries (producing thousands of blades). I had spent some time years ago looking at steel production and the changes in ownership and or control of sword blade production. Yet, the G mark seems reclusive as to why the stamp was appearing.

Anyway, the Bolton I just showed has that similar bright etch in a timeline some might expect quite early for such work, when most of it's contemporaries are blue&gilt. Should we then assume that Bolton was always working with Osborn and Osborn not just producing the blades but etching them as well? One thing I have noticed over the span of a decade or so is a rather individual type/style of b&g needle etching that does not mimic the Osborn blade decorations and so also true of those two bright etched blades shown in this thread.

If you find the time, browse my photo archive linked above and view all the Bates/Bolton blades and the Osborn blades. Note the differences in needle etching. Similar, but at the same time quite dissimilar. Both turning up with G stamps at times.

You might seek out and hail Richard Dellar, as a recently published author regarding British cavalry swords. I don't own the title, as a tangent I have not entirely followed but I do view a lot of US targeted British made swords.

Cheers
GC

In addendum, I have lost my notes on steel production, as I had stored them on the British History Online site. That shelf was wiped clean when they rebuilt their site http://www.british-history.ac.uk/

[Bryce]

G'Day GC,

At this stage I have no idea why Osborn marked some blades with 1,2 or even 4 G's. If you have any theories I am all ears. As to whether or not all Osborn marked officer's blades have a G stamp I can say that every one in my collection does, every one in Richard Dellar's collection does, every one in several other collections does and every one I have come across on the internet with a clear shot of the ricasso does. The majority (possibly all?) Osborn and Gunby marked swords do as well. Originally I thought that Osborn and Gunby stopped marking blades with a G stamp at some stage. Now I am not so sure. The G stamps can be very difficult to spot even on a sword without langets. Can I be sure that 100% of Osborn marked swords have a G stamp? The answer is no, hence the appeal for other collectors to check their swords for G stamps as well. What I am confident of is that the vast majority, (if not all) of Osborn marked officer's swords have one. I am less confident about Osborn's troopers swords as I don't have any in my collection. Richard Dellar has one and he says it doesn't have a stamp. The problem is that troopers' swords are less common in our collections and most have langets. These G stamps can be very difficult to spot behind langets. With several of my own swords I have been convinced they didn't have stamps, only to have another harder look and discover they do have G stamps.

Cheers,
Bryce

[Hotspur]

My Osborn eagle pommel sword has a 12 stamp Most Osborn eagle pommel swords (decorated or not) do not seem to display a G stamp and as many but a few) Bolton eagle pommels do seem to surface with the G stamp.

If you have already made up your mind and have run this by Dellar, I can only but continue to be unconvinced. It may take dismantling all these swords we have to look at tang marks as well.

In the files I had linked and mentioned again is an example of the same etch pattern of your bright sword but done in b&g (a set with a prefix of ful in that Osborn folder). Look closely at the US eagles displayed and the subtle differences in etches, both bright and b&g needlework. You'll see the example of the b&g Osborn that mirrors your bright etch and if you bother looking at my Bolton folder, you will see many Bolton examples that mirrors that Bolton I posted with the bright etch. Again, my point that there does not seem to have been a single source of a blade supply and both (at times) appearing with G stamps.

How much has Dellar delved into cutlers row in Birmingham and how many mills and foundries has he indexed? Curious minds and all that.

To me, if a blade is unmarked as to a retailer or known maker, I can only go by trends of the components and blade decorations. It is not just Wells and Upson, nor Spies and Wolfe in the US but continued mysteries such as the John Salter generations and distributions. Osborn styled swords thought to be originating with Osborn and sold through all on that brief list.

Also in my brief two decades of sword interests, as soon as I feel I have reached the pinnacle of understanding about a subject, more is surely to come. Let's see a complete history of Osborn's works to flesh out what is a nice bit of news copy but hardly conclusive (to me) that his smithys were producing those supposed thousands and that his work was above all others. Surely such information would be atop the cream of Birmingham history.

As contrary as I may seem, I appreciate your thoughts and additional notes. If the G was not necessarily an Osborn specific trait but found on many blades of quality; would it not as easily be as some have pointed out that the G and GG were universally used as marks of quality regardless of who made the blade? Both Germany, Alsace and England used the word Warranted before proved, etc came along. Osborn may be one to have demonstrating a unified proofing system and as such the G and GG might denote proofing but again not necessarily only on his blades. With the use of G already explained to be in use in Germany..... wait we're going in a circle again

Cheers
GC