Ancient Thracian Dagger found in Bulgaria

Bill M · 8th August 2006, 12:27 PM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5251266.stm

Trying to find some better pictures of this.

TVV · 8th August 2006, 07:16 PM

No better pictures ara available currently, but here is some information. Firs of all, the dagger is not Thracian, but a earlier. I could not find a dating, unfortunately, but as the Varna Achaeology Museum contains the oldest golden trasure in the world, this is not so surprising - there is plenty of evidence of a mysterious prehistoric civilisation in the lands of nowadays Bulgaria which had advanced gold working skills. Regardless of what BBC think, it is unlikely that it was used in sacrifices, but most probably had a symbolic purpose, such as being part of ruler's regalia.
Interestingly enough, the more than 15,000 golden objects are not parts of burials, as there are no bones and pottery dicovered around them, and it is believed that they were placed in small man made hills as an offering to deities. I will see if I can find better pictures. The dagger will be put on display in the National History Museum in Sofia on August 9th. I am looking forward to seeing it next time I go back home.

Berkley · 8th August 2006, 07:44 PM

A slightly different picture: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14235989...35772/rpage/1/ . The reference to 500 tiny golden rings suggests golden mail armor, definitely more in the nature of royal regalia.

Emanuel · 9th August 2006, 04:11 AM

Hello,

Not wishing to hijack this thread, but would this knife http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=007 advertised as a thracian machaira be a valid example of thracian weaponry?
Does it even look like a machaira? To me it sort of looks like the small shafra knives, and there is something middle-eastern about it...recalls the kurdish jambiya...

I will be in Romania next week, and I will see what museums there have on the Thrace.
Emanuel

TVV · 9th August 2006, 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manolo

Hello,

Not wishing to hijack this thread, but would this knife http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=007 advertised as a thracian machaira be a valid example of thracian weaponry?
Does it even look like a machaira? To me it sort of looks like the small shafra knives, and there is something middle-eastern about it...recalls the kurdish jambiya...

I will be in Romania next week, and I will see what museums there have on the Thrace.
Emanuel

When it comes to ancient weapons, there are many replicas, and in many cases you need an expert to determine the authenticity of such an object. On-line pictures are deffinitely not enough, at least for me, and I prefer to stay away from anything that claims to be from the late Middle Ages or older. This particular seller's dating is off, usually by a few centuries, and I have no idea about the authenticity of his objects - the late John Piscopo acquired a romfea (a Thracian weapon similar to the Dacian falx and probably its ancestor) from him, and he seems to have an inexhaustible supply of antiques, but as a caveat just keep in mind that as far as I know all of the Balkan countries strictly prohibit the export of such objects. Where he gets his from and at such a low price (most of his auctions start at a buck with no reserve), I do not know, but he has new things every Thursday, and to me at least it seems he must be receiving a 20' container every month, at least.

I have heard that the Military Museum in Bucharest is superb, and I am sure there are plenty of interesting weapons and militaria there, from the Dacians to WW2, but I am sure our Romanian friends will be able to guide you.

Titus Pullo · 11th August 2006, 04:29 AM

That's a great find! I wouldn't say they're more barbaric than other groups. When you have someone fighting to protect their way of life, I'm sure I would get pi$$ED, too.

[laugh!!!] thanks for sharing!

Laurie W · 15th August 2006, 11:57 AM

Hello

Been lurking for some time and decided to register. Surprisingly, you would think something like the Machiera and Rhomphaia would be reproduced/replicated by someone. Somewhere. But not the case. I have only seen two instances of the Dacian Falx made by custom makers. And one was a prototype that only saw light of day during the Legio XX "Roman Days 2003" demostration.

I have not seen anyone offer or make a Machiera OR a Rhomphaia outside of ourselves. Both were made for a customer who is a Living History reenactor/collector (Macedonia/Thracian) with a sizeable reference library and a few actual pieces. Our website shows the Machiera made for him based on a find he had. Not shown on the website is the Rhomphaia and how this came about was through Mr. Piscopo while I was doing some research.

Mr. Piscopo did post some photos of a Rhomphaia on his Yahoo group's photo folders. What it looked like when he got it all curled in it's "ritually killed" form and when it was carefully straightened out. It's quite long and intact. For awhile I was in contact with him about it as our customer wanted to have a reproduction made. Mr. Piscopo had offered to send it to my husband to examine but we graciously declined (would hate to have it get lost in the mail!) But his posted photos of it were good enough for my husband to use as a pattern. That along with any illustrations and photos from the customer's reference library.

By the time this project was done, I learned of Mr. Piscopo's passing and had hoped to send him pictures of the finished piece. As it was, I posted pictures of it over on the MyAmoury.com website.

Just how hard the Balkans are keeping artifacts from slipping through their borders? It's hard to tell. I rather believe some of this "cracking down" is pretty recent and no telling how long this seepage has been going on since the "Iron Curtain" has dropped. If there has been limited grave robbing before, it certainly has grown since there is more access to collectors outside their borders.

Fakes? Of course. But then, just how far? Fakery can be made with just about anything and has. With some historical periods being so popular, you just about figure almost anything on the market ....outside of reputatable sources.... are just that. But just how popular is Thracian history and their artifacts? Like I said, if commercial weapons offerings is any indication of what is fashionable.....Thracian weaponry is practically nil so far and armour is little better. But as time goes on with more legitimate excavations being broadcast (i.e. finds from the Bulgarian "Valley of Kings"), this just may change. It is important for all concerned that a crackdown on this kind of thievery be stopped for the sake of a country's heritage to kept safe.

Laurie W · 15th August 2006, 12:17 PM

Here are two Macherias that are supposed to be actual finds. The one with the scabbard has an "eagle's head" and "star" engraved on the blade. The customer asked us to engrave this on his.

The one in his posession, was in better condition than the more rusted of the two here. However his macheria's disk pommel and guard were intact and there was enough organic material to think the handle was bone. But wood was chosen and the tang did show rivet holes. The blade shape was like the better one of the two shown.

So were any of these fakes? (his piece and the two in the photographs) I do not think so myself. But if too many start cropping up, you can just bet a little cottage industry has grown up.

Andrew · 15th August 2006, 04:01 PM

Hi Laurie, welcome to the forum.

Excellent observations. I'm glad you decided to stop lurking.

Incidentally, have you had any contact with John's family? I'm curious to hear if they have any thoughts about publishing his collection.

Best,
Andrew

TVV · 15th August 2006, 06:09 PM

Excellent observations and points, Laurie. I do not know if all or any eBay auctions offer fake objects, and therefore cannot claim it with certainty. Unfortunately I have friends who are archaeologists and from them I know enough to make me feel quite uneasy and suspicious and I prefer to stay away from ancient weapons offered at on-line auctions. I am not an expert on these weapons and it will be hard for me to distinguish an authentic object from a well made fake even if I hold it in my hands, let alone from poor pictures on the internet.
As for the problem with the illegal treasure-hunting and illegal export of antiques - this is a complicated topic that has been discussed here many times and there are many points of views, all with valid arguments. All I can say is that treasure-hunters usually do horrible damage to the find sites and even the antiques themselves, and that when interesting objects were acquirted illegally on the black market (and here I do not mean a few rusty arrowheads bought on eBay), most often they are hidden in private collections, never to be published. And finally, according to current Bulgarian Law, every object unerathed on Bulgarian soil, even if this happens to be private property, belongs to the Bulgarian state - from a golden Thracian treasure to a common Roman bronze coin worth less than a buck. The export of such objects is strictly prohibited, and so the only way they can make it to the West is through smuggling. Therefore, strictly speaking, your customer's two machairas, if authentic, belong to the Bulgarian government (or the Macedonian government, I believe they have the same laws), even though it is unlikely to claim them (we do not have Zahi Hawas, you see).

Laurie W · 16th August 2006, 06:29 AM

The two Machieras shown were photos the customer found elsewhere. They are not in his possession. The one he does have was bought about three years ago.

Here is the reproduction we made of it. This is the customer's photo and he has been using it (why the blades is discolored near the tip). As I mentioned, the blade's engraved decoration was adapted from the one with the scabbard. The same motif was used on the Rhomphaia.

Quote:

Incidentally, have you had any contact with John's family? I'm curious to hear if they have any thoughts about publishing his collection.

Best,
Andrew

You would hope that a such a huge, collection would catch the eye of a museum curator. One time he posted some photos of his collection in his AFST Yahoo group site. The variety and periods of his pieces were astounding. There was not a room that did not have something in it and he joked about not worrying if some one broke into his bedroom as he had plenty of swords to grab and fight them off with.

As a member of John Piscopo's "AFST@yahoogroups", I received an email concerning Mr. Piscopo's collection from a Rich Nable from "Pricelespast.com". Apparently Mr. Piscopo's daughter is having the collection sold off by an individual (name not mentioned) This seller has asked Rich Nable (of www.pricelespast.com)

"to forward him a list of anyone interested in possibly purchasing any remaining items."

From what Mr. Nable says, this seller has a CD of all items available on it and will mail a copy to interested parties. However Mr. Nable has no idea what is left and cannot answer any questions. He just merely agreed to forward email addresses of interested parties.

I have sent a request because the CD would be a wealth of reference material. "If money grew on trees" is all I can say.

Because of what we do and research, of course your eye is alway catching any odd old weaponry in second hand stores, yard sales and flea markets. In Quartzsite Arizona there is a huge "Rock and Gem" show where vendors from all over come to sell anything you can think of. And not just "rocks" either.
Antiques of all kinds, "brick a brac", crafts, Americana, and anything else. Including ethnic weaponry. In the past, there have been several African vendors setting up with allo sorts of items and sometimes some tribal weapons. Lately the Chinese have been setting up selling "old Chinese heirlooms", including coin swords and occasionally other old edged weaponry.

We would go there to see what to see and pick up supplies from vendors who look around for stuff we can use in our shop. (leather, thread for the leather machines, files, blacksmithing equipment et.c) Stuff that is getting harder to find anymore. Alot of "antiques" that still have alot of life in them and perfectly operational with a little TLC. Better they are used than thrown away.

Alot of edged weaponry from many historical periods crops up there. Most of it new but old as well. Also fakes and some pretty good ones at that. In some cases, passed off as something else because the vendor had no idea what they had. But have seen some tampered pieces too. So, like you say, it's "Caveat Emptor".

Laurie W · 16th August 2006, 07:00 AM

By the way, I just checked the AFST Group site (have not been there since Mr. Piscopo died) and found the Rhomphaia photo folder is now gone. This showed two different ones he had. The longest one was 65 inches long overall. The 45 inch long blade ended at a fingerstop which a 20 inch long rounded bare shank started. The last four inches was formed for two piece rivetted "grip". This was the one we replicated and can be found on MyArmoury website.

The other was shorter and was 35 inches overall.

Fortunately, I did save his photos when they were first posted in the AFST "photo" folder. If it's ok. I would like to post them here to pass along? Or create a new thread.

Emanuel · 22nd September 2006, 10:32 PM

Greetings, back from my visit to Romania!
I've seen the collection of the Military Museum in Bucharest, and they had some examples of these daggers -called sica, also knows as falx. Two of them are remarkably similar to the first machaira posted by Laurie, and also similar to the one that was on ebay. These were identified as Dacian, of course, and dating from around the 2nd century bce I believe. The third blade is dagger-sized, while the other two are larger. I think it also has a star close to the fullers along the spine.

Emanuel

Laurie W · 25th September 2006, 08:56 PM

The Dacians were much later than the Thracians and were in a different area. However the weapons of the latter would no doubt be influenced by former's legendary effectiveness. The Romans certainly found this out during the Dacian Wars.

The Falx is not a Rhomphaia, however. But you can see the similar correlation between the Sica and Macheria. The Falx was designed differently from the earlier Rhomphaia to fit the Dacians' needs in combat. There is not as much ironwork in the Falx as there was with the Rhomphaia, for one. As for tactics, they were probably similar to the Rhomphaia though.

Nice photos.

8th August 2006, 12:27 PM	#1
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Ancient Thracian Dagger found in Bulgaria http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5251266.stm Trying to find some better pictures of this.

8th August 2006, 07:16 PM	#2
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,598	No better pictures ara available currently, but here is some information. Firs of all, the dagger is not Thracian, but a earlier. I could not find a dating, unfortunately, but as the Varna Achaeology Museum contains the oldest golden trasure in the world, this is not so surprising - there is plenty of evidence of a mysterious prehistoric civilisation in the lands of nowadays Bulgaria which had advanced gold working skills. Regardless of what BBC think, it is unlikely that it was used in sacrifices, but most probably had a symbolic purpose, such as being part of ruler's regalia. Interestingly enough, the more than 15,000 golden objects are not parts of burials, as there are no bones and pottery dicovered around them, and it is believed that they were placed in small man made hills as an offering to deities. I will see if I can find better pictures. The dagger will be put on display in the National History Museum in Sofia on August 9th. I am looking forward to seeing it next time I go back home. Last edited by TVV; 8th August 2006 at 07:31 PM.

8th August 2006, 07:44 PM	#3
Berkley Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Austin, Texas USA Posts: 257	A slightly different picture: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14235989...35772/rpage/1/ . The reference to 500 tiny golden rings suggests golden mail armor, definitely more in the nature of royal regalia. Last edited by Berkley; 8th August 2006 at 07:56 PM.

15th August 2006, 11:57 AM	#7
Laurie W Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: SW Arizona Posts: 11	Hello Been lurking for some time and decided to register. Surprisingly, you would think something like the Machiera and Rhomphaia would be reproduced/replicated by someone. Somewhere. But not the case. I have only seen two instances of the Dacian Falx made by custom makers. And one was a prototype that only saw light of day during the Legio XX "Roman Days 2003" demostration. I have not seen anyone offer or make a Machiera OR a Rhomphaia outside of ourselves. Both were made for a customer who is a Living History reenactor/collector (Macedonia/Thracian) with a sizeable reference library and a few actual pieces. Our website shows the Machiera made for him based on a find he had. Not shown on the website is the Rhomphaia and how this came about was through Mr. Piscopo while I was doing some research. Mr. Piscopo did post some photos of a Rhomphaia on his Yahoo group's photo folders. What it looked like when he got it all curled in it's "ritually killed" form and when it was carefully straightened out. It's quite long and intact. For awhile I was in contact with him about it as our customer wanted to have a reproduction made. Mr. Piscopo had offered to send it to my husband to examine but we graciously declined (would hate to have it get lost in the mail!) But his posted photos of it were good enough for my husband to use as a pattern. That along with any illustrations and photos from the customer's reference library. By the time this project was done, I learned of Mr. Piscopo's passing and had hoped to send him pictures of the finished piece. As it was, I posted pictures of it over on the MyAmoury.com website. Just how hard the Balkans are keeping artifacts from slipping through their borders? It's hard to tell. I rather believe some of this "cracking down" is pretty recent and no telling how long this seepage has been going on since the "Iron Curtain" has dropped. If there has been limited grave robbing before, it certainly has grown since there is more access to collectors outside their borders. Fakes? Of course. But then, just how far? Fakery can be made with just about anything and has. With some historical periods being so popular, you just about figure almost anything on the market ....outside of reputatable sources.... are just that. But just how popular is Thracian history and their artifacts? Like I said, if commercial weapons offerings is any indication of what is fashionable.....Thracian weaponry is practically nil so far and armour is little better. But as time goes on with more legitimate excavations being broadcast (i.e. finds from the Bulgarian "Valley of Kings"), this just may change. It is important for all concerned that a crackdown on this kind of thievery be stopped for the sake of a country's heritage to kept safe. Last edited by Laurie W; 15th August 2006 at 12:28 PM.

15th August 2006, 12:17 PM	#8
Laurie W Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: SW Arizona Posts: 11	Here are two Macherias that are supposed to be actual finds. The one with the scabbard has an "eagle's head" and "star" engraved on the blade. The customer asked us to engrave this on his. The one in his posession, was in better condition than the more rusted of the two here. However his macheria's disk pommel and guard were intact and there was enough organic material to think the handle was bone. But wood was chosen and the tang did show rivet holes. The blade shape was like the better one of the two shown. So were any of these fakes? (his piece and the two in the photographs) I do not think so myself. But if too many start cropping up, you can just bet a little cottage industry has grown up. Attached Images

9th August 2006, 04:11 AM	#4
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello, Not wishing to hijack this thread, but would this knife http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=007 advertised as a thracian machaira be a valid example of thracian weaponry? Does it even look like a machaira? To me it sort of looks like the small shafra knives, and there is something middle-eastern about it...recalls the kurdish jambiya... I will be in Romania next week, and I will see what museums there have on the Thrace. Emanuel

11th August 2006, 04:29 AM	#6
Titus Pullo Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 123	That's a great find! I wouldn't say they're more barbaric than other groups. When you have someone fighting to protect their way of life, I'm sure I would get pi$$ED, too. [laugh!!!] thanks for sharing!

15th August 2006, 04:01 PM	#9
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Hi Laurie, welcome to the forum. Excellent observations. I'm glad you decided to stop lurking. Incidentally, have you had any contact with John's family? I'm curious to hear if they have any thoughts about publishing his collection. Best, Andrew

15th August 2006, 06:09 PM	#10
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,598	Excellent observations and points, Laurie. I do not know if all or any eBay auctions offer fake objects, and therefore cannot claim it with certainty. Unfortunately I have friends who are archaeologists and from them I know enough to make me feel quite uneasy and suspicious and I prefer to stay away from ancient weapons offered at on-line auctions. I am not an expert on these weapons and it will be hard for me to distinguish an authentic object from a well made fake even if I hold it in my hands, let alone from poor pictures on the internet. As for the problem with the illegal treasure-hunting and illegal export of antiques - this is a complicated topic that has been discussed here many times and there are many points of views, all with valid arguments. All I can say is that treasure-hunters usually do horrible damage to the find sites and even the antiques themselves, and that when interesting objects were acquirted illegally on the black market (and here I do not mean a few rusty arrowheads bought on eBay), most often they are hidden in private collections, never to be published. And finally, according to current Bulgarian Law, every object unerathed on Bulgarian soil, even if this happens to be private property, belongs to the Bulgarian state - from a golden Thracian treasure to a common Roman bronze coin worth less than a buck. The export of such objects is strictly prohibited, and so the only way they can make it to the West is through smuggling. Therefore, strictly speaking, your customer's two machairas, if authentic, belong to the Bulgarian government (or the Macedonian government, I believe they have the same laws), even though it is unlikely to claim them (we do not have Zahi Hawas, you see).

16th August 2006, 07:00 AM	#12
Laurie W Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: SW Arizona Posts: 11	By the way, I just checked the AFST Group site (have not been there since Mr. Piscopo died) and found the Rhomphaia photo folder is now gone. This showed two different ones he had. The longest one was 65 inches long overall. The 45 inch long blade ended at a fingerstop which a 20 inch long rounded bare shank started. The last four inches was formed for two piece rivetted "grip". This was the one we replicated and can be found on MyArmoury website. The other was shorter and was 35 inches overall. Fortunately, I did save his photos when they were first posted in the AFST "photo" folder. If it's ok. I would like to post them here to pass along? Or create a new thread.

22nd September 2006, 10:32 PM	#13
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Greetings, back from my visit to Romania! I've seen the collection of the Military Museum in Bucharest, and they had some examples of these daggers -called sica, also knows as falx. Two of them are remarkably similar to the first machaira posted by Laurie, and also similar to the one that was on ebay. These were identified as Dacian, of course, and dating from around the 2nd century bce I believe. The third blade is dagger-sized, while the other two are larger. I think it also has a star close to the fullers along the spine. Emanuel Attached Images

25th September 2006, 08:56 PM	#14
Laurie W Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: SW Arizona Posts: 11	The Dacians were much later than the Thracians and were in a different area. However the weapons of the latter would no doubt be influenced by former's legendary effectiveness. The Romans certainly found this out during the Dacian Wars. The Falx is not a Rhomphaia, however. But you can see the similar correlation between the Sica and Macheria. The Falx was designed differently from the earlier Rhomphaia to fit the Dacians' needs in combat. There is not as much ironwork in the Falx as there was with the Rhomphaia, for one. As for tactics, they were probably similar to the Rhomphaia though. Nice photos.