Keris Bugis for comments

mariusgmioc · 22nd August 2016, 07:15 PM

Hello,

I recently acquired the Keris in the photos below. As I am a novice in the fiel, any comment would be most welcomed.

Battara · 22nd August 2016, 09:19 PM

Looks nice. Congratulations!

The dress looks like court wear...........

asomotif · 22nd August 2016, 09:24 PM

Nice blade.

Silverwork looks to be very fine detailled. Do you have some close ups ?

Ps, do you have a picture of the opening of the scabbard without the blade in it ?

Best regards,
Willem

Marcokeris · 22nd August 2016, 11:08 PM

Nice

Jean · 23rd August 2016, 08:55 AM

A typical and quite good Bugis kris with a scabbard recently "embellished" with silver. Personally I prefer the original wooden scabbards like this one.
Regards

Sajen · 23rd August 2016, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

.....recently "embellished" with silver.

What is recent in the world of keris and how important is it? And I am really not sure if all the silver is new/recent.

Sajen · 23rd August 2016, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Personally I prefer the original wooden scabbards like this one.

So you wouldn't like to own some of the keris scabbards are shown in the first link posted by David and would prefer a "simple" wooden one? http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=toli-toli

So please feel free when you come across one to send it to me, I'll send you a pure wooden one!

Best regards,
Detlef

Sajen · 22nd August 2016, 09:24 PM

Hi Marius,

look good to my eyes as well so far what I can see. This type of keris is said coming from Sumbawa. But there a lot of recent examples like this on the market. Here some interesting reading for you: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=sumbawa

Regards,
Detlef

Roland_M · 23rd August 2016, 12:00 PM

Hello Marius,

in my eyes you have acquired a very nice Bugis. Rare to see, it's complete including the loop, which is often missing.
A well done Warangi in Java (I have a contact for you if wanted) could improve the visibility of the beautiful pamor dramatically.
Congratulations.

Roland

mariusgmioc · 23rd August 2016, 01:19 PM

Thank you for your comments!

@Detlef
Thank you very much for the link! The discussion there was very useful for better understanding my Kris.

@Marcokeris
Thanks!

@ Willem
Taking more close-up photos would require some natural light and mounting my gear on a fixed stand, and considering that I usually arrive home from work rather late and that Saturday I will go on holidays, I'm too lazy to make all the effort. The opening in the Wrankgka and the silver fitting are flush on the interior as well so I am prety sure it is the original wrangka belonging to the blade.

@ Jean
I also think the silverwork may be latter addition. However, I think it is of the correct type and style.

@ Roland
Thank you, but I agree with Alan (see his comment below). The pamor is quite visible and I like the lesser contrast.

@ Alan
Thank you for your suggestion! I was thinking the same.

A. G. Maisey · 23rd August 2016, 01:19 PM

It would be rather misguided to subject this Bugis blade to the flamboyant Javanese warangan treatment.

It is very good just as it is.

Marius, once a silver, or horn, or other infill is applied to an old wrongko it is simply not possible to know if the wrongko was originally made for the blade now in it, or not.

In fact, this "originality" of wrongko to blade is not nearly as important as most collectors believe it to be, especially with keris that were actually used in combat. In societies where the keris was principally a part of dress, a nice neat fit of blade to wrongko is pretty important, but in societies where the primary use of the keris was as a weapon, the scabbards were often lost and a scabbard that was near enough was substituted. The two societies where this often occurred were Bugis society and Balinese society.

Anyway, its a really nice batu lapak:- many women and a harmonious household; who wouldn't want such a keris?

mariusgmioc · 23rd August 2016, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

It would be rather misguided to subject this Bugis blade to the flamboyant Javanese warangan treatment.

It is very good just as it is.

Marius, once a silver, or horn, or other infill is applied to an old wrongko it is simply not possible to know if the wrongko was originally made for the blade now in it, or not.

In fact, this "originality" of wrongko to blade is not nearly as important as most collectors believe it to be, especially with keris that were actually used in combat. In societies where the keris was principally a part of dress, a nice neat fit of blade to wrongko is pretty important, but in societies where the primary use of the keris was as a weapon, the scabbards were often lost and a scabbard that was near enough was substituted. The two societies where this often occurred were Bugis society and Balinese society.

Anyway, its a really nice batu lapak:- many women and a harmonious household; who wouldn't want such a keris?

Thank you Alan!

David · 23rd August 2016, 05:04 PM

I would agree with Alan than an aggressive warangan treatment on this keris would not be culturally inappropriate. While i understand the desire to see such a nice pattern "pop" with high contrast , that is far less acceptable outside of the Java/Bali/Madura nexus. I think that it is important for us to understand that the manner in which different keris bearing cultures maintain their blades is not the same and that Indonesia is indeed made up of numerous cultures.
The question of the Passio Sumange (Toli-Toli) has been an ongoing one that i am still not certain we have ever had clear and concise answers on. There do seem to be a fair amount of this style of dress available on the market these days and i suspect that Marius' example is probably more contemporary and may have been added to this dress later. Still, it seems to have a little bit of age and is nicely and tastefully done. I still have questions about the function of this feature traditionally. Was it reserved for a certain social level to convey status? Does it serve any practical function? Is it appropriate to simply add it to the dress of any culturally Bugis keris? We have discussed these questions in these threads, but i am not sure we actually came to any agreed upon conclusion.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=toli-toli
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=toli-toli

Sajen · 23rd August 2016, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland_M

A well done Warangi in Java could improve the visibility of the beautiful pamor dramatically.

Agree here with Alan and David, I don't see any need of a new warangan for this blade.

Bob A · 23rd August 2016, 09:56 PM

Many women and a harmonious household . . . lots of power in that keris, apparently.

Quite an attractive piece, to my unschooled eye.

A. G. Maisey · 23rd August 2016, 10:53 PM

A contradiction in terms Bob, but certainly something to reach for.

Save a lot on housing costs too, instead of having to provide a separate house for each wife.

mariusgmioc · 24th August 2016, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

A contradiction in terms Bob, but certainly something to reach for.

Save a lot on housing costs too, instead of having to provide a separate house for each wife.

It's called "economies of scale."

PS: I hope your wife doesn't see this!

22nd August 2016, 07:15 PM	#1
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,873	Keris Bugis for comments Hello, I recently acquired the Keris in the photos below. As I am a novice in the fiel, any comment would be most welcomed. Attached Images

23rd August 2016, 08:55 AM	#5
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	A typical and quite good Bugis kris with a scabbard recently "embellished" with silver. Personally I prefer the original wooden scabbards like this one. Regards Attached Images

23rd August 2016, 01:19 PM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,702	It would be rather misguided to subject this Bugis blade to the flamboyant Javanese warangan treatment. It is very good just as it is. Marius, once a silver, or horn, or other infill is applied to an old wrongko it is simply not possible to know if the wrongko was originally made for the blade now in it, or not. In fact, this "originality" of wrongko to blade is not nearly as important as most collectors believe it to be, especially with keris that were actually used in combat. In societies where the keris was principally a part of dress, a nice neat fit of blade to wrongko is pretty important, but in societies where the primary use of the keris was as a weapon, the scabbards were often lost and a scabbard that was near enough was substituted. The two societies where this often occurred were Bugis society and Balinese society. Anyway, its a really nice batu lapak:- many women and a harmonious household; who wouldn't want such a keris? Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 23rd August 2016 at 01:35 PM.

23rd August 2016, 05:04 PM	#13
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,026	I would agree with Alan than an aggressive warangan treatment on this keris would not be culturally inappropriate. While i understand the desire to see such a nice pattern "pop" with high contrast , that is far less acceptable outside of the Java/Bali/Madura nexus. I think that it is important for us to understand that the manner in which different keris bearing cultures maintain their blades is not the same and that Indonesia is indeed made up of numerous cultures. The question of the Passio Sumange (Toli-Toli) has been an ongoing one that i am still not certain we have ever had clear and concise answers on. There do seem to be a fair amount of this style of dress available on the market these days and i suspect that Marius' example is probably more contemporary and may have been added to this dress later. Still, it seems to have a little bit of age and is nicely and tastefully done. I still have questions about the function of this feature traditionally. Was it reserved for a certain social level to convey status? Does it serve any practical function? Is it appropriate to simply add it to the dress of any culturally Bugis keris? We have discussed these questions in these threads, but i am not sure we actually came to any agreed upon conclusion. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=toli-toli http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=toli-toli Last edited by David; 23rd August 2016 at 09:16 PM. Reason: Grammatical correction

22nd August 2016, 09:19 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Looks nice. Congratulations! The dress looks like court wear...........

22nd August 2016, 09:24 PM	#3
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,221	Nice blade. Silverwork looks to be very fine detailled. Do you have some close ups ? Ps, do you have a picture of the opening of the scabbard without the blade in it ? Best regards, Willem

22nd August 2016, 11:08 PM	#4
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	Nice

22nd August 2016, 09:24 PM	#8
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,497	Hi Marius, look good to my eyes as well so far what I can see. This type of keris is said coming from Sumbawa. But there a lot of recent examples like this on the market. Here some interesting reading for you: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=sumbawa Regards, Detlef

23rd August 2016, 12:00 PM	#9
Roland_M Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Germany Posts: 523	Hello Marius, in my eyes you have acquired a very nice Bugis. Rare to see, it's complete including the loop, which is often missing. A well done Warangi in Java (I have a contact for you if wanted) could improve the visibility of the beautiful pamor dramatically. Congratulations. Roland

23rd August 2016, 09:56 PM	#15
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 411	Many women and a harmonious household . . . lots of power in that keris, apparently. Quite an attractive piece, to my unschooled eye.

23rd August 2016, 10:53 PM	#16
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,702	A contradiction in terms Bob, but certainly something to reach for. Save a lot on housing costs too, instead of having to provide a separate house for each wife.