Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 26th August 2010, 12:03 AM   #31
M ELEY
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NC, U.S.A.
Posts: 2,066
Default

Yes, the briquet pictured was very common, but an earlier French form that came out in the late 18th was rarer and had a nice look to it.

The iron hilt is the one we were discussing and still no diffinitive answer. Some classify them as naval, others as possible Brit Life Guards and, of course, the Mountain Artillery swords of the later 19th c.
M ELEY is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 27th August 2010, 11:24 AM   #32
M ELEY
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NC, U.S.A.
Posts: 2,066
Default

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MEWAX:IT

This one is a cleaver fake (or should we say a misrepresentation). It appears to be the Starr m1826 naval cutlass. It's blade is spot-on with curved edge, unstopped fuller, guard with curved outer edge. Gilkerson mentions that reproductions of this sword were made awhile back and are being passed off either on purpose or accident as authentic. Note the wood grip, which appears old, should be ribbed iron for this model and that any of the Starr swords made after 1812 were NOT for private use, so thus would be marked with a "N Starr". Another example of how easy it is to be fooled with this tricky area of collecting-
M ELEY is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 27th August 2010, 03:16 PM   #33
Ron Anderson
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 228
Default

Hi

I have just been skimming the edges of this conversation but having read the replies in a little more detail can now appreciate what this discussion has been about.

Sidearms aren't really my thing, I must admit. Jim seems to have a good handle on the iron hilted sword and I can't really add much to that, except to say that it is a nice sword.These departmental sidearms seem pretty rare.

Though you seem more interested in naval items, it's not a bad sword in its own right, and just a pity there's no scabbard.

Going back to the briquet (if you'll forgive me) I do believe it is a German briquet. At least the hilt is German. I'm pretty sure of this, as the very last rib is thicker than the others – and only the German pattern, I think M1879, looked like this. I can't recall exactly which German states - I believe most if not all of them.

So the sword may not be a reproduction after all, but as suggested part of Bannerman's handiwork. As it was used until almost the end of the 19th century, the fullered blade is perhaps not that surprising. After all, this briquet was introduced far later than the others (the russian one was introduced in the 1820s, and most of the others also far earlier)

So perhaps this was an American sword imported from Europe after all. It would have been well after the Civil War though, so one has to ask 'why'.
Ron Anderson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th August 2010, 03:27 PM   #34
Dmitry
Member
 
Dmitry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 607
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Anderson
Dear M Eley

I'm a new member. Sorry to get to this thread late. I don't recognise the markings on your briquet. However, these were imported into the USA, mainly it seems from Russia. I think these may have been used in the civil war. Can't be sure. However, I've purchased a Russian example from the US recently and have seen quite a few available from there.

So it's not impossible it's a Russian import marked in the US.

Ron
Russia didn't export anything to the US or the CS during the American Civil War. No swords, no guns, nothing.
Dmitry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th August 2010, 03:19 AM   #35
Ron Anderson
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 228
Default

Hi Dmitry

Sorry, I didn't mean to say it was imported during the civil war. It may have been imported before the civil war.

If so, it may have been used during the war.

I have a briquet I purchased from America. It is Russian but it has the markings CA on it and I've been told this is associated with the civil war.

Since then I have seen dozens of briquets for sale from America, all Russian and all with the marking CA on the blade.

Ron
Ron Anderson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th August 2010, 03:41 AM   #36
Dmitry
Member
 
Dmitry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 607
Default

Russia never exported any arms to the US, or anywhere else, aside from probably just the Kingdom of Bulgaria, which was even less industrially-developed. In fact, quite the opposite, the US companies exported arms into Russia, and later into the Soviet Union.
The briquet with the CA marking that you have sounds like a an Italian bersaglieri or police hanger from the WWII period or thereabout, and is indeed quite abundant.
Dmitry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th August 2010, 05:38 AM   #37
Ron Anderson
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 228
Default

Hi Dmitry

The item is in storage currently and unfortunately I don't have a photo. However, it is certainly not from WW2. It is an early 19th century briquet - this is blatantly obvious from both its condition and its patina. It matches the Russian 1817 model briquet exactly. Which doesn't surprise me, because that is what it was described as when I bought it.

I have been collecting swords for 25 years and I know the difference between a ww2 sword and a sword from the early to mid 19th century.

This sword is the Russian pattern.

That doesn't necessarily mean it was manufactured in Russia. It could have been made in Solingen, and the US certainly imported swords from there. However, there is no such marking to confirm one way or another.

Ron
Ron Anderson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th August 2010, 06:28 AM   #38
Dmitry
Member
 
Dmitry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 607
Default

Is that it?
Attached Images
  
Dmitry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th August 2010, 09:33 AM   #39
Ron Anderson
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 228
Default

Yes, that it is it.
Ron Anderson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th August 2010, 09:34 AM   #40
Ron Anderson
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 228
Default

Correction, no that is not it.

Mine has a flat blade.
Ron Anderson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th August 2010, 09:40 AM   #41
Ron Anderson
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 228
Default

The blade of my sword has darkened with age. Otherwise, yes - the hilts are similar.
Ron Anderson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th August 2010, 01:48 AM   #42
Ron Anderson
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 228
Default

Well Dmitry

It appears you are right and I am wrong.

I will check my sword again. I am surprised.

The sword appeared to be much much older.

Regards
Ron
Ron Anderson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd September 2010, 03:57 PM   #43
Dmitry
Member
 
Dmitry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 607
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Anderson
Well Dmitry

It appears you are right and I am wrong.

I will check my sword again. I am surprised.

The sword appeared to be much much older.

Regards
Ron
Things often appear older than they really are. We've all been burned. Those who say they haven't, are lying.
Attached Images
  
Dmitry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd September 2010, 04:47 PM   #44
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,620
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmitry
Things often appear older than they really are. We've all been burned. Those who say they haven't, are lying.
Sure thing .
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th September 2010, 01:52 AM   #45
Ron Anderson
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 228
Default

Well, thanks, Dmitry.

It could've stayed for years in my colllection without me realising what it really was.

Fortunately, it was not expensive. And I don't really mind hanging to such a thing. Though I would've preferred it be an early Russian briquet.

Regards
Ron
Ron Anderson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th September 2010, 07:10 PM   #46
celtan
Member
 
celtan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: PR, USA
Posts: 679
Question

Hola Nando, Ron and Dmitry,

I have three of these babies. One spanish from 1870s, longer. The second italian, from the carabinieri (CA on the area of the ricasso, G and 19 on the upper area of the crossguard ) showing a thick blade spine near the ricasso. The third similar to the second one but with a rather thinner blade , its scabbard being very similar to the CA, although the leather stitches are different. And yet, since the CA blade's spine is much thicker, it won't fit in the third one's, even though they do look very similar.

I haven't been able to ID the third one. Italian?

How does the bersaglieri's differ from the carabinieri's?

Any suggestions?

Best

M

Last edited by celtan; 5th September 2010 at 07:22 PM.
celtan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th October 2013, 08:16 PM   #47
David R
Member
 
David R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,049
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmitry
Little-known fact - the naval attribution of that chest of arms was contested and disproved in a lengthy article in one of the Royal Armouries Yearbooks; I forget for which year, but I can find out.
Apparently the chest was the "Estate Arms Chest" for a wealthy magnate during the Chartist period in the UK.....
David R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st March 2014, 11:17 PM   #48
Morgan
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 3
Default Briquet!

I am piggy backing on this thread because one of the patterns of briquet pictured here interest me as well. Here are some more pics of what might be a german briquet. It has only unit markings on the bottom of the hilt, and also a fullered blade. I have heard that the Russians and Spanish had fullered blade on their briquets sometimes. It has the narrower, less rounded version of the knuckle-guard.There are only 26 ribs on the grip by the way.
Attached Images
   
Morgan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th December 2014, 08:08 PM   #49
Morgan
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 3
Default

I am adding to this rather old thread as I have been doing some research on this type of sword due to a briqet/sabre/cutlass I acquired. I originally thought it might be an infantry NCO sword. It has a blade that is 26 and 1/4th inches long and over 1 3/8 inches wide at forte. It has a two finger wide fuller on both sides. I feel that it is a late 18th early 19th century blade. Wonderful look and balance. Great blade! The whole sword is covered in a lacquer that could have either been put on by the museum that owned it (there is a cursive numbering on the forte in white ink that suggests a museum) or perhaps by naval personnel if I ascribe to the idea that this sword was for a ships armoury. I have left the lacquer on at this point. The hilt poses some questions for me. It has no markings on it at all, however the grip has 28 ribs as the French ones do. I compared it to my 1816 briquet and there are differences in dimensions and weight. The 1816 has a larger and heavier hilt. I have posted some pics. One pic is my new briquet/sabre by itself. The other pics are the hilts of both for comparison. The 1816 pattern is on the right in both pics. Perhaps this pattern on my new one will be familiar to someone. I'd like to know what date/nationality the hilt might be from or is they have seen this hilt/blade configuration before and in what context. Worse case scenario is the hilt is "modern" but I'm not sure how to tell.....P.S. I'm a different Morgan than the one on the prior post.
Attached Images
   

Last edited by Morgan; 27th December 2014 at 09:32 PM.
Morgan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:57 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.