Unidentified weapon?- possibly Kabyle

Nicknz · 30th December 2022, 09:39 PM

I acquired this object at an overseas auction some years ago. I initially thought it was a type of dance wand from the Solomon Islands but closer inspection established that was not the case. I have since made various attempts to establish what it is and where it was from but with no success. However recently I (by accident) found a similar object in the British Museum. It was amongst a collection of artefacts from the Kabyle people who come from a part of Algeria. It looked older but the carved decoration was the same as the questioned example. Its about 88cm or close to 3 feet in length.
It was listed as a Sword? or Fighting Stick? so the Museum did not know it's actual use nor what it was called.
I am just wondering if anyone out there night be able to enlighten as to this items use and what its correct name might be. I am assuming the Museum is right about it being Kabyle but there might be a ? about that as well.

ariel · 31st December 2022, 02:29 AM

Can you please post a pic from the museum, just for comparison?

Tim Simmons · 31st December 2022, 08:21 AM

The style of the carving especially the deep crescent cuts is similar to the work on the scabbards of knives and sword of the Kabyle. Stick fighting can be war but a great sport in much of Africa. This looks like presentation or ceremonial piece. Rather nice too.

colin henshaw · 31st December 2022, 09:00 AM

A most interesting item, seemingly there was/is a tradition of stick fighting among the Berber people of the Maghreb. It will be good to learn more about these fighting sticks ( never seen one before)...

kronckew · 31st December 2022, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Can you please post a pic from the museum, just for comparison?

Found it on the museum site. The OP's war club doesn't look like it, other than being curved. Decorations appear different. Poor photo too.

Maybe one of our club aficionados can help. Sadly, Vanadoo, our esteemed expert, isn't with us anymore.

I also post a photo of a kayble flyssa scabbards with their carved decor.

Museums frequently mislabel items origins.

kronckew · 31st December 2022, 10:31 AM

Also found this photo of pacific war clubs in a French castle museum.

I also note that so. Pacific/Australian abouriginal clubs often have incised geometric designs similar to ones from around the world.

(Bottom, 4th from the right)

Nicknz · 1st January 2023, 01:38 AM

The photograph from the British Museum posted by Kronckew is the one I referred to in my post - there is another one of the same shape in the Kabyle collection but with writing on it & not much decoration.
I have attached a close up of part of the decoration on the Museum example and you can see it does match the decoration on the one in my possession - so I'd be inclined to think it is Kabyle/Berber in origin- that's assuming the Museum has got the origin right right in the first place.
It was acquired by the British Museum in 1954 from the Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine. Henry S Wellcome, the Institute founder, was a prolific collector of artfacts and this item was probably acquired by his Institute at some stage in its existance and then passed on to the British Museum.
Thanks for the thoughts thus far - I think it would be inclined to be decorative as it wouldn't stand up to any degree of force such as involved in stick fighting or similar.

30th December 2022, 09:39 PM	#1
Nicknz Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 5	Unidentified weapon?- possibly Kabyle I acquired this object at an overseas auction some years ago. I initially thought it was a type of dance wand from the Solomon Islands but closer inspection established that was not the case. I have since made various attempts to establish what it is and where it was from but with no success. However recently I (by accident) found a similar object in the British Museum. It was amongst a collection of artefacts from the Kabyle people who come from a part of Algeria. It looked older but the carved decoration was the same as the questioned example. Its about 88cm or close to 3 feet in length. It was listed as a Sword? or Fighting Stick? so the Museum did not know it's actual use nor what it was called. I am just wondering if anyone out there night be able to enlighten as to this items use and what its correct name might be. I am assuming the Museum is right about it being Kabyle but there might be a ? about that as well. Attached Images

31st December 2022, 10:31 AM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,150	Also found this photo of pacific war clubs in a French castle museum. I also note that so. Pacific/Australian abouriginal clubs often have incised geometric designs similar to ones from around the world. (Bottom, 4th from the right) Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 31st December 2022 at 11:56 AM.

1st January 2023, 01:38 AM	#7
Nicknz Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 5	The photograph from the British Museum posted by Kronckew is the one I referred to in my post - there is another one of the same shape in the Kabyle collection but with writing on it & not much decoration. I have attached a close up of part of the decoration on the Museum example and you can see it does match the decoration on the one in my possession - so I'd be inclined to think it is Kabyle/Berber in origin- that's assuming the Museum has got the origin right right in the first place. It was acquired by the British Museum in 1954 from the Wellcome Institute for the History of Medicine. Henry S Wellcome, the Institute founder, was a prolific collector of artfacts and this item was probably acquired by his Institute at some stage in its existance and then passed on to the British Museum. Thanks for the thoughts thus far - I think it would be inclined to be decorative as it wouldn't stand up to any degree of force such as involved in stick fighting or similar. Attached Images

31st December 2022, 02:29 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Can you please post a pic from the museum, just for comparison?

31st December 2022, 08:21 AM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,739	The style of the carving especially the deep crescent cuts is similar to the work on the scabbards of knives and sword of the Kabyle. Stick fighting can be war but a great sport in much of Africa. This looks like presentation or ceremonial piece. Rather nice too.

31st December 2022, 09:00 AM	#4
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	A most interesting item, seemingly there was/is a tradition of stick fighting among the Berber people of the Maghreb. It will be good to learn more about these fighting sticks ( never seen one before)...