Anyone know what this is?...

TrondN · 29th July 2005, 07:29 AM

Hi members of the forum.

My father in law (recently deceased) found an old sword while digging in the basement under our summer house some years ago. The local museum couldn't tell where and when it's from (but they was very interested of getting their hands on it...!).

The shaft looks like iron, somewhat roughly made. The colors/paint are the work of my father in law, trying to protect it from rust and to bring out the patterns.

The blade looks like it's made of steel, is straight and single bladed. This also seam a little roughly worked, but it could be due to some detoriation and it could have been less rough in the past.

Facts:
Weight: 880 grams, 1.95 pound.
Lenght total: 87.5 cm, 34.5 inches
Length blade: 71 cm, 28 inches
Lenght hilt: 16.5 cm, 6.5 inches

Pictures attached.

If anyone have any idea what this is, it's origin and age I would really appreciate the info.

RSWORD · 29th July 2005, 02:27 PM

Although I do not collect European arms per se, I do recognize this piece and believe it to be a British band sword. You can see what looks like a "GR" on the hilt which would refer to King George. As far as dating, it could very well date to the early 19th century. If you found it in the ground perhaps it is a relic from the War of 1812?

ariel · 29th July 2005, 02:28 PM

Looks very theatrical to me.
Did John Gielgud use it in "Macbeth"?

Yannis · 29th July 2005, 11:45 PM

It is a british drum (or band) sword. Mid 19th century.

TrondN · 30th July 2005, 10:23 AM

RSWORD and Yannis, thanks for your insight. It kind of makes sence if it turnes out to be from the 19'th century. I can't tell how it got under my in laws house, but there was quite some shipping traffic through there in the old days. So maybe someone treded it for food or something.
Thanks again.

And Ariel, thanks for the humour...;-)

Carlos Santillan · 3rd August 2005, 04:13 AM

Hi TrondN,

As for the blade, I think, It's a blade that classifies as a type XI in Oakeshott's typology of medieval swords.

Type XI characteristics: This type differs from type X by being longer, more narrow and having a narrow fuller. The point is often acute. It is believed to have been in use between c. 1100 and 1175. The sub-type XIa has av broader and shorter blade, but the fuller is still narrow.

Type XI

Best Regards,
Carlos M. Santillan

not2sharp · 3rd August 2005, 06:54 AM

British Bandmans sword of 1856.

n2s

TrondN · 11th August 2005, 10:17 PM

That look exactly like my sample, except for the blade. I'll keep searching for an answer on the blade, but your information has helped me a lot. Thanks again!
And sorry for the late reply. I've been on vacation for a couple of weeks.

Jim McDougall · 12th August 2005, 04:10 AM

Hi TrondN,
I agree with the others noting this to be a British drummers sword, as seen in "Swords of the British Army" by Brian Robson, 1975, p.167, fig. 173.
While this has been referred to as the 'pattern 1856' Mark I.....Robson notes that this pattern '"...seems to have appeared in certain regiments in the early 1840's" (p.166). He cites a painting of a group of the 68th regiment (known as the Paulet Group) painted in 1846 as his reference for this. That painting is illustrated in the "Journal of the Society for Army Historical Research" Vol. XLVI, p.63. I would suggest contacting the National Army Museum in London if interested in obtaining that reference, they have always been more than happy to assist with research.

The blade on your example seems to be an earlier form than the typical diamond section blade with pronouced medial ridge (19") that appeared on the 1856 examples (used until 1895). The cypher on the escutcheon is that of Queen Victoria.

While these noncombatant swords used to be somewhat overlooked by collectors, they really seem to have become more interesting as they dont really appear often....and this one as noted seems to have an earlier blade.

For guys who specialize on ethnographic weapons, you guys are pretty quick on the draw and right on target on this one!!!

I only recognized it because I used to collect British swords a really, really, really long time ago

Thanks for posting this TrondN,

Best regards,
Jim

29th July 2005, 07:29 AM	#1
TrondN Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 3	Anyone know what this is?... Hi members of the forum. My father in law (recently deceased) found an old sword while digging in the basement under our summer house some years ago. The local museum couldn't tell where and when it's from (but they was very interested of getting their hands on it...!). The shaft looks like iron, somewhat roughly made. The colors/paint are the work of my father in law, trying to protect it from rust and to bring out the patterns. The blade looks like it's made of steel, is straight and single bladed. This also seam a little roughly worked, but it could be due to some detoriation and it could have been less rough in the past. Facts: Weight: 880 grams, 1.95 pound. Lenght total: 87.5 cm, 34.5 inches Length blade: 71 cm, 28 inches Lenght hilt: 16.5 cm, 6.5 inches Pictures attached. If anyone have any idea what this is, it's origin and age I would really appreciate the info. Attached Images

30th July 2005, 10:23 AM	#5
TrondN Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 3	Thanks so far... RSWORD and Yannis, thanks for your insight. It kind of makes sence if it turnes out to be from the 19'th century. I can't tell how it got under my in laws house, but there was quite some shipping traffic through there in the old days. So maybe someone treded it for food or something. Thanks again. And Ariel, thanks for the humour...;-)

3rd August 2005, 04:13 AM	#6
Carlos Santillan Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Mexico City, Mexico Posts: 3	Re: Hi TrondN, As for the blade, I think, It's a blade that classifies as a type XI in Oakeshott's typology of medieval swords. Type XI characteristics: This type differs from type X by being longer, more narrow and having a narrow fuller. The point is often acute. It is believed to have been in use between c. 1100 and 1175. The sub-type XIa has av broader and shorter blade, but the fuller is still narrow. Type XI Best Regards, Carlos M. Santillan

11th August 2005, 10:17 PM	#8
TrondN Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 3	Thank a lot, n2s!... That look exactly like my sample, except for the blade. I'll keep searching for an answer on the blade, but your information has helped me a lot. Thanks again! And sorry for the late reply. I've been on vacation for a couple of weeks.

29th July 2005, 02:27 PM	#2
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	Although I do not collect European arms per se, I do recognize this piece and believe it to be a British band sword. You can see what looks like a "GR" on the hilt which would refer to King George. As far as dating, it could very well date to the early 19th century. If you found it in the ground perhaps it is a relic from the War of 1812?

29th July 2005, 02:28 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Looks very theatrical to me. Did John Gielgud use it in "Macbeth"?

29th July 2005, 11:45 PM	#4
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	It is a british drum (or band) sword. Mid 19th century.

3rd August 2005, 06:54 AM	#7
not2sharp Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 210	British Bandmans sword of 1856. n2s

12th August 2005, 04:10 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Hi TrondN, I agree with the others noting this to be a British drummers sword, as seen in "Swords of the British Army" by Brian Robson, 1975, p.167, fig. 173. While this has been referred to as the 'pattern 1856' Mark I.....Robson notes that this pattern '"...seems to have appeared in certain regiments in the early 1840's" (p.166). He cites a painting of a group of the 68th regiment (known as the Paulet Group) painted in 1846 as his reference for this. That painting is illustrated in the "Journal of the Society for Army Historical Research" Vol. XLVI, p.63. I would suggest contacting the National Army Museum in London if interested in obtaining that reference, they have always been more than happy to assist with research. The blade on your example seems to be an earlier form than the typical diamond section blade with pronouced medial ridge (19") that appeared on the 1856 examples (used until 1895). The cypher on the escutcheon is that of Queen Victoria. While these noncombatant swords used to be somewhat overlooked by collectors, they really seem to have become more interesting as they dont really appear often....and this one as noted seems to have an earlier blade. For guys who specialize on ethnographic weapons, you guys are pretty quick on the draw and right on target on this one!!! I only recognized it because I used to collect British swords a really, really, really long time ago Thanks for posting this TrondN, Best regards, Jim