American Horsemans or British Dragoon sword?

Hotspur · 23rd February 2015, 12:54 AM

Well, I wouldn't say the colonials could not fuller blades or stamp names. There were certainly fewer fullered blades made in the Americas at that juncture. What I have been getting at is that if it was originally purchased in the colonies is that it was likely entirely produced in England and that the clipped point is a European/German trait.

I am hardly an authority on the matters but in working with early American swords have been entirely objective while trying to be as logical as possible. Look to logical fallacies. Particularly the fallacy of the undistributed middle.

Cheers

GC

Shakethetrees · 23rd February 2015, 03:05 AM

I would suggest looking at the catalogs from the Guthman sale held about six or eight years ago.

There was a number of great American blades, as well as British, to compare.

Will M · 23rd February 2015, 03:20 AM

I was told Americans could not fuller blades until a certain period.
Glen I should check my references more carefully before making such sweeping statements.
I do see in Neumanns book the majority of swords English and German with fullered blades and also imported blades on American hilts.
There also is the odd American made fullered blade.

It's a bit frustrating to find a virtually identical sword guard in Mazanskys book, he doesn't picture the hilt very well or describe any blade at all.
Then he says there are over 200 of this type in the Royal Armouries.

Will M · 23rd February 2015, 03:23 AM

Amazingly the pictures are still online for the Guthman sale

http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/1462...0&w0=list&m0=0

I see if the sword is connected to a maker than there is a good premium on it.

3 bar hilts seem to be quite rare in this period

Hotspur · 23rd February 2015, 05:58 AM

Yup, I have had the Guthman catalog bookmarked the months leading up to it. IIRC, it was a two day affair and bidding was vigorous.

The Heritage Auction pages are there forever as well.

Cheers

GC

Will M · 25th February 2015, 04:02 PM

I have heard from someone who has seen the 200+ swords in the Royal Armouries years ago and all have straight blades with a narrow and a wide fuller.
The sword does appear to be American made, to myself anyways.
The Wyatt in Philadelphia may well be the maker and there is the oldest mounted unit the First Troop of Philadelphia and others that were near by at the time the sword was made.
Not finding another example makes the sword rare but more difficult to place exactly.
Existing regiments tend not to have examples of their own troopers swords.

Will M · 25th February 2015, 04:23 PM

Looking at the point the back edge is curved, bevelled/sharpened and 3" long.
I put the blade edge parallel from ricasso with the wood joint so the amount of curvature can be seen. Blade is straight for about 6" then starts its curvature.
The last 12" or so has the most curvature.Point tip to bottom is 3 1/4" from blade edge at ricasso.
Can also see that the blade swells towards the clipped point.

23rd February 2015, 03:23 AM	#4
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 390	Amazingly the pictures are still online for the Guthman sale http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/1462...0&w0=list&m0=0 I see if the sword is connected to a maker than there is a good premium on it. 3 bar hilts seem to be quite rare in this period Last edited by Will M; 23rd February 2015 at 03:37 AM.

25th February 2015, 04:23 PM	#7
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 390	Looking at the point the back edge is curved, bevelled/sharpened and 3" long. I put the blade edge parallel from ricasso with the wood joint so the amount of curvature can be seen. Blade is straight for about 6" then starts its curvature. The last 12" or so has the most curvature.Point tip to bottom is 3 1/4" from blade edge at ricasso. Can also see that the blade swells towards the clipped point. Attached Images Last edited by Will M; 25th February 2015 at 04:34 PM.

23rd February 2015, 12:54 AM	#1
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 494	Well, I wouldn't say the colonials could not fuller blades or stamp names. There were certainly fewer fullered blades made in the Americas at that juncture. What I have been getting at is that if it was originally purchased in the colonies is that it was likely entirely produced in England and that the clipped point is a European/German trait. I am hardly an authority on the matters but in working with early American swords have been entirely objective while trying to be as logical as possible. Look to logical fallacies. Particularly the fallacy of the undistributed middle. Cheers GC

23rd February 2015, 03:05 AM	#2
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	I would suggest looking at the catalogs from the Guthman sale held about six or eight years ago. There was a number of great American blades, as well as British, to compare.

23rd February 2015, 03:20 AM	#3
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 390	I was told Americans could not fuller blades until a certain period. Glen I should check my references more carefully before making such sweeping statements. I do see in Neumanns book the majority of swords English and German with fullered blades and also imported blades on American hilts. There also is the odd American made fullered blade. It's a bit frustrating to find a virtually identical sword guard in Mazanskys book, he doesn't picture the hilt very well or describe any blade at all. Then he says there are over 200 of this type in the Royal Armouries.

23rd February 2015, 05:58 AM	#5
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 494	Yup, I have had the Guthman catalog bookmarked the months leading up to it. IIRC, it was a two day affair and bidding was vigorous. The Heritage Auction pages are there forever as well. Cheers GC

25th February 2015, 04:02 PM	#6
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 390	I have heard from someone who has seen the 200+ swords in the Royal Armouries years ago and all have straight blades with a narrow and a wide fuller. The sword does appear to be American made, to myself anyways. The Wyatt in Philadelphia may well be the maker and there is the oldest mounted unit the First Troop of Philadelphia and others that were near by at the time the sword was made. Not finding another example makes the sword rare but more difficult to place exactly. Existing regiments tend not to have examples of their own troopers swords.