Mystery Dagger

Aurangzeb · 16th May 2005, 12:17 AM

Greetings To All Forum Members !

I was hoping that the members of this forum may be able to help us take the mystery out of this 'mystery dagger' which belongs to a good family friend that has tasked my father and I to hopefully shed some light on it's origin and any possible history of it. Our friend is in his mid 50's and told us that this dagger was handed down to him from his Great Grandfather who obtained it sometime around the World War I era. The gentleman who originally obtained it fought on the American side during World War I. No other information as to where it came from, other than that mentioned, is known. It is a very unique piece, appears to be handmade, and through all of our research and numerous knife and gunshows have we ever seen anything ewven remotely resembling it. Those that we have asked periodically also have no idea as to it's possible origin or have any information regarding it. Although from the attached photographs it is hard to see the written inscription on the blade, however what does most stand out is the date "1884" Since I currently do not have the dagger in my posession I cannot relate the inscription engraved into the blade, however it is all written in German 'script'. Any information that may help identify this dagger would be most appreciated, many of you have been most helpful in all of my past postings !

Thank you all in advance for any help that you may be able to provide ! I truly enjoy this forum thoroughly, it is always most informative !

Warmest regards to all !
Mark.... Wapwallopen, Pennsylvania, USA

fearn · 16th May 2005, 01:07 AM

Neat!

I'm...clueless on this one. One suggestion would be to take a piece of thinnish paper and some pencil or charcoal, and try to see if you can get a rubbing of the engraving off the blade. An image of that (or a clear picture of the engraving) might help our german speakers get some information off of it.

Fearn

nechesh · 16th May 2005, 01:44 AM

Neat indeed! My guess is that this is a one-of-a-kind item made by a 19thC artisan. Since a translation will go a long way in helping to solve the mysteries of this blade i would highly recommend that you contact the owner and get the inscription to pass along to the forum. Compared to some languages we get on blades German should not be all that hard to get translated. And if your friend ever has any interest in getting rid of this blade please let me know. It's right up my macabre alley

Lew · 16th May 2005, 02:09 AM

Hi Guys

What you have hear is a French Cult dagger.

Lew

nechesh · 16th May 2005, 03:08 AM

OK Lew, what's a French cult dagger?

If you mean that it it belonged to a member of a magickal lodge, that would be my guess too. The skull and cross bones is a symbol used by Masonic and other Lodge groups.
What makes you say French if the inscription is in German? There were many lodges working in Germany during the 19th century.

Ian · 16th May 2005, 04:29 AM

Lew is referring to the daggers produced for satanic cults that arose in France and Western Europe in the late 18th and early 19th C. in the aftermath of the French Revolution and the Napoleonic Wars. These knives are 10-15 inches in overall length, and typically have curved or straight double-edged blades with cast bronze hilts depicting skeletons, satyrs, snakes, goats, owls, or other satanic symbols. The sheath is usually metal.

This one, from 1884 (?), is later than most and might be a late 19th C. reproduction.

nechesh · 16th May 2005, 11:49 AM

I'm sorry Ian, but i am having trouble with your depiction of skeletons, satyrs, snakes, goats and owls as being satanic symbols. These are all symbols which have been used in magickal lodges and Wicca, but i can assure you there is nothing particularly satanic about them. As i mentioned, the skull and cross bones is a very well established masonic symbol. Some folks probably consider that a satanic organization, but personally i find that a bit of a stretch.

Ian · 16th May 2005, 12:41 PM

Nechesh:

My description was based on information contained in Levine, p. 477,* where he also shows a similar example, as well as previous discussion in this Forum of similar knives. Whether this knife is a satanic dagger, or from another cult or organization, is hard to say. I noted that the date, 1884, seemed later than usual for a dagger associated with a French satanic cult, as referred to by Lew, which may or may not indicate another source.

As a former Freemason, I am not familiar with Freemasonry using depictions of "Death," skeletons, or animal imagery on knives in their rituals. The square and compass, the letter "G," circles and triangles are much more common symbols in that society.

Based on the style and the depiction of the hilt, plus the general high quality of this knife, I'm inclined to agree with Lew until we can find a better source and reference.

Ian.

* Bernard Levine. Levine's Guide to Knives and Their Values. Fifth edition. Krause Publications, Iola, WI. 2001.

Justin · 16th May 2005, 01:29 PM

I have agree that the cult dagger designation is tempting ,although the lack of cross guard is odd and I havent seen very many dirks or bowies for that matter with dates on them to the point where I think its usually not a great sign.

I think this may be a knife that was made in the wake of WW1 possibly to sell to soldiers on their way home,they did this in WW2 and I dont see why they wouldnt have for WW1.

Battara · 16th May 2005, 10:37 PM

I also agree with Ian. Satanic cults were in vogue during the French revolution and imployed such symbolism in the hilts and scabbards. I have seen a few now and although varied, the themes are the same. They were more ritual pieces than fighters.

tom hyle · 17th May 2005, 12:12 AM

Is that aluminum? Pewter?
The date could easily and most realically be part of a presentation inscription; fairly common.
I note a repeated theme of flame.
To a lot of traditional Christians, all other religions are Satanism....
But I'm not sure we're seeing any specifically Satanic imagery here; the themes are Death and Fire; various lines might be drawn, but it seems like an occult or ritual practice dagger from Europe.

nechesh · 17th May 2005, 12:27 AM

Ian, i wasn't necessarily suggesting that this dagger was of masonic origin, however, with all due respect to your own personal experience with masonry, skull imagery has long been a part of mason ritual. Just one example would be the skull and cross bones on the ritual apron of the Knight of the Rose Croix. The apron of the Master Elect of Nine depicts a bloody severed head held by a hand and arm by the hair. Animal imagery abounds, from dragons and snakes to lambs and two-headed eagles. I also am not aware of any of this imagery being used, per se, on any of the masonic ritual daggers, but many magickal lodges took clues for their ritual structure from Free Masonry. These groups were not in any way satanic.

I must disagree with Jose. Satanic cults were in no way "in vogue" during the French Revolution. Satanic scares were. Catherine La Voisin's cult, where it all started, at the court of King Louis XIV was probably not all that large or as terrible as was made out. It has always been very easy for any one to cry "SATANISM!" at anything the slightest bit heretical. Just look at the history of the witch trials. Most of the so-called satanic cults were nothing of the sort. Even Aleister Crowley, the self appointed "Great Beast" of the 19th-20thC was much more a Christian at heart than he would ever dare let on. Of course, some people took his antics far too seriously in the 1960s and contemporary "satanism" was born.

Sorry for the digression. It all just to say that i still feel it is much more likely that this dagger was made for a member of a non-satanic magickal lodge. They actually tended to take there magickal work much more seriously and i believe would be more likely to have such a beautifully done piece of work commissioned. Of course, if the inscription reads "All hail satan" i will definitely concede i am wrong.

Rather · 17th May 2005, 08:11 AM

Definitely a German inscription, I can read:

Zur Erinnerung ??????? 1884
??? Lang

In remembrance of ????? 1884
??? Lang

Would need a clearer Photo to be able to read the rest of the words. So this dagger was a gift from a guy named Lang to remind of either an event or a person. This is regrettably illegible on the pictures.

Conogre · 18th May 2005, 03:44 AM

Here's another case of a common tag used as a catch all to identify a general type of weapon being taken in a context more personal than it was ever intended to be.
I, too, have seen pieces labled as "satanic ritual daggers", particularly of the type referred to in Levine's and tend to agree with Nechesh that they were probably more magical related than actual Satanism, but in that time period, almost anything that looked even slightly macabre was immediately tossed into that category, but that shouldn't be all that surprising as hard core fundamentalists still do that even today.........I CAN'T be the only one here old enough to remember rock'n'roll and D&D being labled demonic and/or satanistic as well, can I?
The knife looks to be extremely well executed, from an artistic point of view, compared to many/most that I've seen and the date wouldn't surprise me as to being original for a gift/presentation piece from that era as well.
Germany seems to have produced a preponderance of these from the late 1700's, and particularly from the 1850's through the 1940's which DOES make the category of FRENCH satanic knives a bit odd, but who am I to quibble?
Mike

nechesh · 18th May 2005, 04:08 AM

I would still love to get the inscription translated. Is there a way for you, Mark, to contact the owner and get the actual inscription. It might clear up a lot.

Aurangzeb · 18th May 2005, 09:20 PM

Hi nechesh!

I have been trying to contact him for several days now and to no luck.We can't seem to set a good time,Especially during the week.

16th May 2005, 12:17 AM	#1
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Mystery Dagger Greetings To All Forum Members ! I was hoping that the members of this forum may be able to help us take the mystery out of this 'mystery dagger' which belongs to a good family friend that has tasked my father and I to hopefully shed some light on it's origin and any possible history of it. Our friend is in his mid 50's and told us that this dagger was handed down to him from his Great Grandfather who obtained it sometime around the World War I era. The gentleman who originally obtained it fought on the American side during World War I. No other information as to where it came from, other than that mentioned, is known. It is a very unique piece, appears to be handmade, and through all of our research and numerous knife and gunshows have we ever seen anything ewven remotely resembling it. Those that we have asked periodically also have no idea as to it's possible origin or have any information regarding it. Although from the attached photographs it is hard to see the written inscription on the blade, however what does most stand out is the date "1884" Since I currently do not have the dagger in my posession I cannot relate the inscription engraved into the blade, however it is all written in German 'script'. Any information that may help identify this dagger would be most appreciated, many of you have been most helpful in all of my past postings ! Thank you all in advance for any help that you may be able to provide ! I truly enjoy this forum thoroughly, it is always most informative ! Warmest regards to all ! Mark.... Wapwallopen, Pennsylvania, USA Attached Images

16th May 2005, 04:29 AM	#6
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,041	Satanic dagger Lew is referring to the daggers produced for satanic cults that arose in France and Western Europe in the late 18th and early 19th C. in the aftermath of the French Revolution and the Napoleonic Wars. These knives are 10-15 inches in overall length, and typically have curved or straight double-edged blades with cast bronze hilts depicting skeletons, satyrs, snakes, goats, owls, or other satanic symbols. The sheath is usually metal. This one, from 1884 (?), is later than most and might be a late 19th C. reproduction. Last edited by Ian; 17th May 2005 at 12:19 PM.

17th May 2005, 12:27 AM	#12
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Ian, i wasn't necessarily suggesting that this dagger was of masonic origin, however, with all due respect to your own personal experience with masonry, skull imagery has long been a part of mason ritual. Just one example would be the skull and cross bones on the ritual apron of the Knight of the Rose Croix. The apron of the Master Elect of Nine depicts a bloody severed head held by a hand and arm by the hair. Animal imagery abounds, from dragons and snakes to lambs and two-headed eagles. I also am not aware of any of this imagery being used, per se, on any of the masonic ritual daggers, but many magickal lodges took clues for their ritual structure from Free Masonry. These groups were not in any way satanic. I must disagree with Jose. Satanic cults were in no way "in vogue" during the French Revolution. Satanic scares were. Catherine La Voisin's cult, where it all started, at the court of King Louis XIV was probably not all that large or as terrible as was made out. It has always been very easy for any one to cry "SATANISM!" at anything the slightest bit heretical. Just look at the history of the witch trials. Most of the so-called satanic cults were nothing of the sort. Even Aleister Crowley, the self appointed "Great Beast" of the 19th-20thC was much more a Christian at heart than he would ever dare let on. Of course, some people took his antics far too seriously in the 1960s and contemporary "satanism" was born. Sorry for the digression. It all just to say that i still feel it is much more likely that this dagger was made for a member of a non-satanic magickal lodge. They actually tended to take there magickal work much more seriously and i believe would be more likely to have such a beautifully done piece of work commissioned. Of course, if the inscription reads "All hail satan" i will definitely concede i am wrong. Last edited by nechesh; 17th May 2005 at 02:02 AM.

16th May 2005, 01:07 AM	#2
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Neat! I'm...clueless on this one. One suggestion would be to take a piece of thinnish paper and some pencil or charcoal, and try to see if you can get a rubbing of the engraving off the blade. An image of that (or a clear picture of the engraving) might help our german speakers get some information off of it. Fearn

16th May 2005, 01:44 AM	#3
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Neat indeed! My guess is that this is a one-of-a-kind item made by a 19thC artisan. Since a translation will go a long way in helping to solve the mysteries of this blade i would highly recommend that you contact the owner and get the inscription to pass along to the forum. Compared to some languages we get on blades German should not be all that hard to get translated. And if your friend ever has any interest in getting rid of this blade please let me know. It's right up my macabre alley

16th May 2005, 02:09 AM	#4
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Hi Guys What you have hear is a French Cult dagger. Lew

16th May 2005, 03:08 AM	#5
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	OK Lew, what's a French cult dagger? If you mean that it it belonged to a member of a magickal lodge, that would be my guess too. The skull and cross bones is a symbol used by Masonic and other Lodge groups. What makes you say French if the inscription is in German? There were many lodges working in Germany during the 19th century.

16th May 2005, 11:49 AM	#7
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	I'm sorry Ian, but i am having trouble with your depiction of skeletons, satyrs, snakes, goats and owls as being satanic symbols. These are all symbols which have been used in magickal lodges and Wicca, but i can assure you there is nothing particularly satanic about them. As i mentioned, the skull and cross bones is a very well established masonic symbol. Some folks probably consider that a satanic organization, but personally i find that a bit of a stretch.

16th May 2005, 12:41 PM	#8
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,041	Nechesh: My description was based on information contained in Levine, p. 477,* where he also shows a similar example, as well as previous discussion in this Forum of similar knives. Whether this knife is a satanic dagger, or from another cult or organization, is hard to say. I noted that the date, 1884, seemed later than usual for a dagger associated with a French satanic cult, as referred to by Lew, which may or may not indicate another source. As a former Freemason, I am not familiar with Freemasonry using depictions of "Death," skeletons, or animal imagery on knives in their rituals. The square and compass, the letter "G," circles and triangles are much more common symbols in that society. Based on the style and the depiction of the hilt, plus the general high quality of this knife, I'm inclined to agree with Lew until we can find a better source and reference. Ian. * Bernard Levine. Levine's Guide to Knives and Their Values. Fifth edition. Krause Publications, Iola, WI. 2001.

16th May 2005, 01:29 PM	#9
Justin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 175	I have agree that the cult dagger designation is tempting ,although the lack of cross guard is odd and I havent seen very many dirks or bowies for that matter with dates on them to the point where I think its usually not a great sign. I think this may be a knife that was made in the wake of WW1 possibly to sell to soldiers on their way home,they did this in WW2 and I dont see why they wouldnt have for WW1.

16th May 2005, 10:37 PM	#10
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	I also agree with Ian. Satanic cults were in vogue during the French revolution and imployed such symbolism in the hilts and scabbards. I have seen a few now and although varied, the themes are the same. They were more ritual pieces than fighters.

17th May 2005, 12:12 AM	#11
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Is that aluminum? Pewter? The date could easily and most realically be part of a presentation inscription; fairly common. I note a repeated theme of flame. To a lot of traditional Christians, all other religions are Satanism.... But I'm not sure we're seeing any specifically Satanic imagery here; the themes are Death and Fire; various lines might be drawn, but it seems like an occult or ritual practice dagger from Europe.

17th May 2005, 08:11 AM	#13
Rather Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Hamburg, Germany Posts: 72	Definitely a German inscription, I can read: Zur Erinnerung ??????? 1884 ??? Lang In remembrance of ????? 1884 ??? Lang Would need a clearer Photo to be able to read the rest of the words. So this dagger was a gift from a guy named Lang to remind of either an event or a person. This is regrettably illegible on the pictures.

18th May 2005, 03:44 AM	#14
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	Here's another case of a common tag used as a catch all to identify a general type of weapon being taken in a context more personal than it was ever intended to be. I, too, have seen pieces labled as "satanic ritual daggers", particularly of the type referred to in Levine's and tend to agree with Nechesh that they were probably more magical related than actual Satanism, but in that time period, almost anything that looked even slightly macabre was immediately tossed into that category, but that shouldn't be all that surprising as hard core fundamentalists still do that even today.........I CAN'T be the only one here old enough to remember rock'n'roll and D&D being labled demonic and/or satanistic as well, can I? The knife looks to be extremely well executed, from an artistic point of view, compared to many/most that I've seen and the date wouldn't surprise me as to being original for a gift/presentation piece from that era as well. Germany seems to have produced a preponderance of these from the late 1700's, and particularly from the 1850's through the 1940's which DOES make the category of FRENCH satanic knives a bit odd, but who am I to quibble? Mike

18th May 2005, 04:08 AM	#15
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	I would still love to get the inscription translated. Is there a way for you, Mark, to contact the owner and get the actual inscription. It might clear up a lot.

18th May 2005, 09:20 PM	#16
Aurangzeb Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 306	Hi nechesh! I have been trying to contact him for several days now and to no luck.We can't seem to set a good time,Especially during the week.