Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 3rd March 2013, 07:26 PM   #1
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 8,016
Default A miniature of a helm

Just acquired in a London arms fair.
I would call it a 1X2 scale as it measures 22 cms. in hight. I understand this is a tournament helm, but would like to know more about it, like: is this the reproduction of a specific known helm, exhibited in a museum or collection ?
Is the term "frog mouth" well attributed to this model ? Was it a fashion of the XV century?
Any comment will be so much appreciated. I am more interested in the chronicle of this device in its original version than in this miniature itself ... although i find it rather well made and appealing .

.
Attached Images
       
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th March 2013, 01:38 PM   #2
A Senefelder
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 214
Default

Fernando, this appears to be a very well made ( with some age to it ) reduced size version of the final developement of the frog mouthed jousting helmet. This type with fluted skull would date to the end of the 15th century and start of the 16th. While I cannot refer you to one specific helmet this is meant to be a copy of, there are a number of late one with fluted top/skull plates. Ffoulkes, in The Armourer And His Craft, has a picture of as part of a complete jousting harenss for the Stechzeug ( joust with sharp lances ) from the end of the 15th/ begining of the 16th century on page 5. On page 89 he has an illustration of another with fluted skull ( Austrian I think and again end of 15th/begining of 16th century ) as well and an illustration of the sort of liner that was laced into these helmets. Stones Guide has pics ( front and back ) of another complete harness for the Stechzeug, dated about 1500, with fluted skull on page 36. I know as part of the gothic revival of the Victorian era there was an increased interest in armour for display, the quality of manufacture varying widely from excellent ( fully functional well made ) to simply display ( it looks like a helmet at a distance but don't get real close to it or you'll know its a fake ). Included in this was the manufacture of minature armours and components. The attention to detail on this piece of yours is excellent, looking at least based on your pics like a half sized version, but otehrwise built in all respects like a full sized functional helmet.
A Senefelder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th March 2013, 04:43 PM   #4
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 8,016
Default

Outstanding response, Allan.
A fistfull of tracks to follow the subject; impossible to be more pleasant.
Now i will have to digest such an amount of information.
For a start i enjoyed seeing a specimen with a 'hinged buckle' like in mine, that of the third link of your second post.
I happen to have Stone's guide; thanks for calling my attention to page 36. This example appears to be the same as the one from the Bashford Dean collection in the Metropolitan Museum, featured in a Bulletin i recalled yesterday having bought in the Museum shop when i was there.
Once more thanks a lot for the comprehensive enligthening.
By the way, i am attaching pictures of the interior. You are an armourer; how old would you say this helm is, within a range of consensual failure.

.
Attached Images
  
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th March 2013, 06:12 PM   #5
A Senefelder
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 214
Default

Quote:
You are an armourer; how old would you say this helm is, within a range of consensual failure.


Nando, this is somewhat of a tough call, i'm seeing some things that I like in terms of it having good age, cut washers ( period washers were made by simply punching holes in sheet metal, grinding/filing off the burr and then cutting out around the hole, the simplest merely squares, the nicer examples actually filed relatively round ), beveled and detail filed plate edged where the plates of the helmet overlap each other ( this was not an asthetic, this created a better glancing angle for weapon edges and points than a flat metal edge which created a 90 degree angle with the plate beneath that could trap a weapon allowing maximum force transmition rather than causing it to skid off ), the hinge is appears beefy and well made rather than some of the flimsy constructs on lower end Victorian armour had, and the holes for lacing the liner in are in the right places. The rolled edges are somewhat uneven on the underside rather than having been done with a slip roller ( again a common feature on low end Victorian armour ) If it is Victorian I would say it must have been made by one of the high end makers like Ernst Schmidt, although to be honest it seems to be constructed so well/correctly that I would think if I hadn't been told it was half sized that it just might be a full sized original.

My best guess would be high end Victorian reproduction by a top notch guy like Ernst Schmidt http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_schmidt.html
A Senefelder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th March 2013, 07:00 PM   #6
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 8,016
Default

I got you Allan.
... and for some reason i don't remember (an original or replica rapier discussion ?) i had already learnt about Ernst Schmidt skills.
I am much obliged for your treatise on helmets.
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th March 2013, 07:16 PM   #7
A Senefelder
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 214
Default

My pleasure Nando. Victorian work has to a degree come into its own in the last 10 years or so and i've seen several examples of Mr. Schmidts work command prices on par with middle to munnitions quality 16th century armour in the last few years. This is a very neat item and something i've never seen before. I've seen several of the exactingly made miniature armours that were made in the 19th century but not such an exacting reduced scale reproduction of a single element.
A Senefelder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th March 2013, 03:33 AM   #8
pbleed
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Little Rock, Arkansas
Posts: 57
Default

If this were mine, I would call it "a helm of a miniature!"
Peter
pbleed is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 5th March 2013, 02:52 PM   #9
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 8,016
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbleed
If this were mine, I would call it "a helm of a miniature!"
Peter

fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th March 2013, 06:16 PM   #10
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 8,016
Lightbulb

Is it my imagination or do we have here a maker's mark ?

.
Attached Images
   
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th March 2013, 10:25 PM   #11
A Senefelder
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 214
Default

Quote:
Is it my imagination or do we have here a maker's mark ?


There's definitely a stamp there, it appears to be a T inside a kite shield shape.
A Senefelder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th March 2013, 12:00 PM   #12
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 8,016
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A Senefelder
There's definitely a stamp there, it appears to be a T inside a kite shield shape.

Also my impression. Probably the smith wanted to give a complete period look to the piece; the type of mark, letter and shield, is not a contemporaneous logo.
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th March 2013, 07:55 PM   #13
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 8,016
Lightbulb

Through some 'intense' research i found out the person who sold me the helm is a Gentleman called Terry English, an armour master smith who has been making the arms and armour for the actors of various known films.
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th March 2013, 08:05 PM   #14
A Senefelder
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 214
Default

Quote:
Through some 'intense' research i found out the person who sold me the helm is a Gentleman called Terry English,


Thats pretty cool Nando. I know Terrys work well as i'm sure many do including Excalibur and I believe The Messenger films.

I've been thinking about this helmet since you found the stamp. I don't know if it possible to reach Terry for his thoughts on it, but while I can think of no reason for constructing a minature version of this in the period while they were in use ( which I can for the Victorian Gothic revival ), the attention to detail as well as the stamp, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he thought it to be a period piece. It's certainly made that way.
A Senefelder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th March 2013, 01:26 AM   #15
machinist
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 92
Default

In olden times many factories would make miniatures of such items as farm equipment, furniture, stoves and such so a salesman could carry many examples to show prospective clients what they would be buying. This worked well in America because of the great distances to travel and difficulty in moving goods. I do not know if this would be applicable to armor in Europe as it would require more personal fitting and I think perhaps the distances traveled between manufacture and customer may not be so great. Beautiful helm no matter what.

Last edited by machinist : 16th March 2013 at 03:14 PM.
machinist is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 08:32 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.