Rapier or smallsword PIERCED blade for comment

Valjhun · 4th February 2013, 07:10 PM

I've got thisone today. Sadly it seems shortened and attached to a funky corssguard and wooden hilt like for a toy.

The blade is gorgeous thou. I would say that it is pre 1700 from apperance.

Can you poste some pierced rapier/smallsword blades for comparison?

Any other comments?

Atlantia · 4th February 2013, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valjhun

I've got thisone today. Sadly it seems shortened and attached to a funky corssguard and wooden hilt like for a toy.

The blade is gorgeous thou. I would say that it is pre 1700 from apperance.

Can you poste some pierced rapier/smallsword blades for comparison?

Any other comments?

Hi Valjhun,

Hmmm, a puzzle! It could be pre 1700, it could even be mid 18thC or just beyond.
It might have been shortened or adapted from the hilt end as well.
How long is the blade from crossguard to tip now?

ATB
Gene

Edit: Compare it with this section of a smallsword blade from the mid 18thC.

Atlantia · 4th February 2013, 08:30 PM

I've got a childs smallsword (so the pierced section is proportionally shorter) from the mid 18th with a pierced blade of similar type. Here is that section.

Valjhun · 4th February 2013, 11:45 PM

Thank you Gene. The blade is 59,5 cm long. Tomorrow I will dissasemble it and see what is under that silly hilt.

Atlantia · 5th February 2013, 10:03 AM

Before you disassemble it, can we see the whole thing?
Oh, and I sent you a PM that might be of help to your research.

fernando · 5th February 2013, 01:10 PM

This one figures in page 28 of R.D.C. Evans work "THE PLUG BAYONET".
Mounted in a hilt with a cross guard with 'Helmet-Head' finials (a XVII century fashion) we can see a perforated blade measuring 356 m/m, (quote Evans) possibly a re-used section of a rapier blade.
Pity he doesn't attribute a date to the blade ... for the sake of this discussion, i mean

.

M ELEY · 6th February 2013, 01:26 AM

Yes, please show the hilt! It seems that a lit of these rapier/smallsword blades were re-used to make daggers, naval dirks, etc. Not trying to jump the gun until I see the hilt, but the simple cross-bar might indicate a naval piece refitted for battle. I have a stiletto bladed dirk with a 16" blade. Just food for thought before you dis-assemble it.

M ELEY · 6th February 2013, 01:28 AM

Oops, I see now where you listed the length of approx 23". Perhaps too long for a dirk, but would still like to see the hilt.

Valjhun · 6th February 2013, 11:10 AM

OK, here is it. Just a piece of wood rivetted. Awkward and modern.

Too short for a sword too long for a dagger.

Thank you for your replies. Fernando wonderfull, I never saw a plug bayonet with such a blade wich is very similar to mine.

Valjhun · 6th February 2013, 11:48 AM

Without the wooden hilt.

Well, I hoped that the blade contiued into the hilt... obviously not.. is that an original tang or just a soldered piece? I would vote for the second option, I'm not sure thou.

fernando · 6th February 2013, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valjhun

... too long for a dagger...

Not necessarily ... i mean, there were hunting (plug) bayonets with blades reaching the length of your example and even more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valjhun

is that an original tang or just a soldered piece? I would vote for the second option, I'm not sure thou....

Most certainly the second option; blades usually brake by their body but probably this one broke by the tang. Then the (new) owner shortened its point and welded such bizarre tang, transforming it into what it is now, whatever its use... even a defence side arm. This would also give logic to a weapon with such blade length.
The cross is apparently from the period, added to the blade for its new pourpose.
Pardon me if i am talking nonsense

.

M ELEY · 6th February 2013, 03:27 PM

Not nonsense at all, Fernando! I agree with you. This is a reworked blade made into a short sword. Not a naval piece, but I'd lay odds that it's Spanish colonial. They reused many old rapier and broadsword blades from earlier periods due to a shortage of materials. I've got two swords, one a bilbo-type and another, a Cuban cutlass (per Brinkerhoff's book), both with braised, reworked quillons, reworked hilts and much earlier blades. The construction on yours is primitive (no offense, I like it still!) and plain, typical of items found in New Spain or shortly after their independence (c.1780-1820's??). This is just my opinion, but it does stand to reason that anyone that would go to the trouble of refitting it was still using it. The blade is Spanish?

Atlantia · 6th February 2013, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valjhun

Without the wooden hilt.

Well, I hoped that the blade contiued into the hilt... obviously not.. is that an original tang or just a soldered piece? I would vote for the second option, I'm not sure thou.

Hi Valjhun

My best guess would be that this blade started out life in a configuration more akin to the one's I've shown above and in the link I sent you.
I suspect that it has been shortened from the hilt end (as well as having lost a little from the tip).
If you take the proportions of the childs small sword that I have with this type of blade then the overall length is 65cm (with possibly a tiny loss from the tip) with the single pierced 'in and out' fuller starting 10.5cm from the hilt and ending 23.5cm down the blade (from the hilt).
The full sized one has a blade length of just over 76cm long with similar relative proportions for the fuller and area above.

So, if you assume that your blade was once 76cm long and of the same configuration as the one I propose, then there would be around 12cm of blade from where the fuller started and the original hilt.
Looking at the top of the blade on yours I can't see any evidence of shoulders or widening, which would also lend credence to the theory that it's been modified at that end.
So if we deduct 12cm from 76cm we come up with 64cm, the tip looks like it's been recut so that could well account for the other 4.5cm 'missing' which gives us the remaining 59.5cm that you have now.

The tang as it is now looks like it might have had metal added in (as you rightly pointed out).
You could clean it up and there might be more 'evidence' to be seen. There looks to be signs of working on the upper part of the blade and the tang as it is now certainly doesn't look like it was originally made that way.

I would suggest that this current configuration lacks the 'finesse' of a sword made for fighting and simply doesn't fit into any of the scenarios that I can imagine. Frankly I also imagine that the balance would be somewhat 'lacking' with the wooden hilt and huge cruciform guard.

However there is perhaps another possibility.

The size makes me think childs sword. The shape makes me think of a crude version of a bowless Matadors sword.
I imagine that ghastly as it is, some children aspire to be bullfighters. Why not a 'first real' sword for a poor aspiring Matador?
Of course any theory on it's 'second life' is just guesswork pure and simple.

Here's a close-up of the upper section of the childs smallsword for you to examine.

Best
Gene

Valjhun · 7th February 2013, 01:21 AM

Thank you, friends for your help.

I ruined the wooden hilt during the process and it is constructed from spruce wood and not older than 20 years as it is very very clear and fresh looking. (it looks older in the pics as it is darkly laquered). Someone found this broken sword blade and has put it toghether to his best knowledge and tried to sell it as a complete piece, I guess.

I agree that the grotesque guard is also modern and it seems machine made, and poorly made, so I will remove it also I think.

The question is what should I do with it? It is a nice blade overall and I think to rehilt it in some manner so I can put it in my collection. I really like the blade and composite would be better that nothing I guess.

Any thoughts of where I can find some period dagger hilt with pommel or so?

Atlantia · 10th February 2013, 09:19 AM

How wide is the blade at the hilt now? Perhaps it's narrow enough to be a swordstick?

pappa-karlo · 13th February 2013, 08:29 AM

Here pictures of my sword (blade 81 cm) and a seller`s - he describes the sword as the end of 17. Danish or German transitional rapier

fernando · 13th February 2013, 12:47 PM

Beautiful

Atlantia · 13th February 2013, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pappa-karlo

Here pictures of my sword (blade 81 cm) and a seller`s - he describes the sword as the end of 17. Danish or German transitional rapier

Edit: Karlo, we aren't allowed to discuss items currently offered for sale. You should remove the pictures of that sword as it is easily identifyable with your description.

pappa-karlo · 13th February 2013, 02:46 PM

OK, no problem. Delited.

Atlantia · 13th February 2013, 03:01 PM

Hi Karlo,

It seems that your sword and mine have almost the same blade. What do you make of the brass inlays?

Regards
Gene

pappa-karlo · 13th February 2013, 03:44 PM

My blade is much closer to the one shown in the deleted photos - same brass pattern, two pairs of short longitudinal grooves, then 6-coals section change to the rhomboids.

Atlantia · 13th February 2013, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pappa-karlo

My blade is much closer to the one shown in the deleted photos - same brass pattern, two pairs of short longitudinal grooves, then 6-coals section change to the rhomboids.

Okay.
Do you have any further information on this style of brass inlay?

pappa-karlo · 14th February 2013, 11:13 AM

No, I have not studied this subject

4th February 2013, 07:10 PM	#1
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Rapier or smallsword PIERCED blade for comment I've got thisone today. Sadly it seems shortened and attached to a funky corssguard and wooden hilt like for a toy. The blade is gorgeous thou. I would say that it is pre 1700 from apperance. Can you poste some pierced rapier/smallsword blades for comparison? Any other comments? Attached Images

4th February 2013, 08:30 PM	#3
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	I've got a childs smallsword (so the pierced section is proportionally shorter) from the mid 18th with a pierced blade of similar type. Here is that section. Attached Images

5th February 2013, 01:10 PM	#6
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Not dated but ... This one figures in page 28 of R.D.C. Evans work "THE PLUG BAYONET". Mounted in a hilt with a cross guard with 'Helmet-Head' finials (a XVII century fashion) we can see a perforated blade measuring 356 m/m, (quote Evans) possibly a re-used section of a rapier blade. Pity he doesn't attribute a date to the blade ... for the sake of this discussion, i mean . Attached Images

6th February 2013, 11:10 AM	#9
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	OK, here is it. Just a piece of wood rivetted. Awkward and modern. Too short for a sword too long for a dagger. Thank you for your replies. Fernando wonderfull, I never saw a plug bayonet with such a blade wich is very similar to mine. Attached Images

6th February 2013, 11:48 AM	#10
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Without the wooden hilt. Well, I hoped that the blade contiued into the hilt... obviously not.. is that an original tang or just a soldered piece? I would vote for the second option, I'm not sure thou. Attached Images

4th February 2013, 11:45 PM	#4
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Thank you Gene. The blade is 59,5 cm long. Tomorrow I will dissasemble it and see what is under that silly hilt.

5th February 2013, 10:03 AM	#5
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Before you disassemble it, can we see the whole thing? Oh, and I sent you a PM that might be of help to your research.

6th February 2013, 01:26 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,072	Yes, please show the hilt! It seems that a lit of these rapier/smallsword blades were re-used to make daggers, naval dirks, etc. Not trying to jump the gun until I see the hilt, but the simple cross-bar might indicate a naval piece refitted for battle. I have a stiletto bladed dirk with a 16" blade. Just food for thought before you dis-assemble it.

6th February 2013, 01:28 AM	#8
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,072	Oops, I see now where you listed the length of approx 23". Perhaps too long for a dirk, but would still like to see the hilt.

6th February 2013, 03:27 PM	#12
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,072	Not nonsense at all, Fernando! I agree with you. This is a reworked blade made into a short sword. Not a naval piece, but I'd lay odds that it's Spanish colonial. They reused many old rapier and broadsword blades from earlier periods due to a shortage of materials. I've got two swords, one a bilbo-type and another, a Cuban cutlass (per Brinkerhoff's book), both with braised, reworked quillons, reworked hilts and much earlier blades. The construction on yours is primitive (no offense, I like it still!) and plain, typical of items found in New Spain or shortly after their independence (c.1780-1820's??). This is just my opinion, but it does stand to reason that anyone that would go to the trouble of refitting it was still using it. The blade is Spanish?

7th February 2013, 01:21 AM	#14
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Thank you, friends for your help. I ruined the wooden hilt during the process and it is constructed from spruce wood and not older than 20 years as it is very very clear and fresh looking. (it looks older in the pics as it is darkly laquered). Someone found this broken sword blade and has put it toghether to his best knowledge and tried to sell it as a complete piece, I guess. I agree that the grotesque guard is also modern and it seems machine made, and poorly made, so I will remove it also I think. The question is what should I do with it? It is a nice blade overall and I think to rehilt it in some manner so I can put it in my collection. I really like the blade and composite would be better that nothing I guess. Any thoughts of where I can find some period dagger hilt with pommel or so?

10th February 2013, 09:19 AM	#15
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	How wide is the blade at the hilt now? Perhaps it's narrow enough to be a swordstick?

13th February 2013, 08:29 AM	#16
pappa-karlo Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 15	may be useful Here pictures of my sword (blade 81 cm) and a seller`s - he describes the sword as the end of 17. Danish or German transitional rapier Attached Images Last edited by pappa-karlo; 13th February 2013 at 02:45 PM.

13th February 2013, 12:47 PM	#17
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Beautiful

13th February 2013, 02:46 PM	#19
pappa-karlo Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 15	OK, no problem. Delited.

13th February 2013, 03:01 PM	#20
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi Karlo, It seems that your sword and mine have almost the same blade. What do you make of the brass inlays? Regards Gene Attached Images

13th February 2013, 03:44 PM	#21
pappa-karlo Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 15	My blade is much closer to the one shown in the deleted photos - same brass pattern, two pairs of short longitudinal grooves, then 6-coals section change to the rhomboids.

14th February 2013, 11:13 AM	#23
pappa-karlo Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 15	No, I have not studied this subject