Silver mounted Georgian hanger.

Norman McCormick · 28th February 2009, 02:55 PM

Hi Guys,
This arrived this morning, an off e-bay purchase, and I have to say I'm delighted and pleasantly surprised. Thinking it was a nice brass mounted hanger imagine my delight when I found it is a solid silver mounted hanger with a cutlers or silversmiths mark discreetly stamped on the guard, better photos of this mark to follow. Although my first love is for Indian Arms and Armour I am finding Georgian swords a fascinating subject, so many variations over quite a long period in our history and an era that shaped so much of todays political geography. Back to the sword, a 26 3/4 inch twin fullered blade 33 inches overall, solid silver guard and lion pommel with a bone or might be ivory? grip and silver wire wrap. The blade is light and flexible and I would say certainly a fighter, whether Navy or Army I don't know. I am aware swords of this type were manufactured in the U.K and U.S. but I am insufficiently knowledgeable to determine which so help needed here as well. Degree of restoration or not suggestions are also required. As always many thanks for all and any replies.
Regards,
Norman.

Gavin Nugent · 28th February 2009, 05:25 PM

I think it is a nice find and most unusual that the hilt is bone with what appears to be horn spacers all with silver fitings.
There must be something about it to have these features, I do not know why but am hoping others can say with some further certainty.
What I can point you to is the book, "the American Sword 1175-1945" by Harold Peterson.
On page 62, plate 56, this piece sports the similar knuckle guard, similar carved hilt arrangement, lions head and curved blade with the fullering arangment that yours shows and the guard is described as having incised lines as yours does too.
On page 212, plate 172, although in silver, the lions head is of higher quality as is yours, but it lacks the knuckle guard and the blade differs in the fullering arrangment and the silver mark also differs.

Gav

fernando · 28th February 2009, 06:47 PM

Very, very nice, Norman.
Certainly ivory?
XVIII century?
If in a second thought you decide that Indian stuff is your sole hobby, this humble servant will be ready for trade

.

Fernando

BTW, what is there to restore?

Norman McCormick · 28th February 2009, 08:21 PM

Hi Guys,
Thanks for the positive comments.
Gav, the 'horn spacers' are upon closer inspection silver ribbon wound round the grooves with twisted silver wire bordering the ribbon. Searching the net I'm beginning to think it is a nicer find than I first thought, sheer luck I hasten to add.
Fernando, I think for the moment trade between Portugal and Scotland will be limited to used sherry/port casks for the 'Whisky'. I think Ivory hilt as well after a better look. As to the restoration, there is some active rust on the blade and a lot of the silver is black with oxide. I haven't done anything yet before I get some opinions from the Forum Members including your good self of course.
Thanks again.
My Regards,
Norman.

fernando · 28th February 2009, 08:38 PM

I would see about the active rust on the blade ( fine steel wool damped in, for instance, penetrating oil), but would not touch the silver, for as dark as it may be.
... in my humble opinnion, of course

.
Fernando

M ELEY · 28th February 2009, 09:08 PM

Holy Cow, where do you people find these things!!! Absolutely beautiful mid/late 18th century British hanger in fine form (no restoration needed

). Definitely one I would want in my collection, if you ever get tired of it, Norman, keep me in mind!

-Mark

Norman McCormick · 28th February 2009, 10:02 PM

Hi Mark,
Thank you for your kind words. Is there anything specific that makes this British and is there any way of narrowing the date gap.
My Regards,
Norman.

Jim McDougall · 28th February 2009, 11:50 PM

Outstanding British officers lionhead, these with this hilt configuration are contemporary to the four slot hilts on Revolutionary War period c.1770's. The gadrooned bands on are pretty often seen on these as well, most of the British officers swords carried the straight cavalry backsword blade. Officers often had custom sabres made, as this one seems to be.
I'll try to dig out Neumann to find more, that is all I can recall without references.

Very nicely done!!!

All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 1st March 2009, 02:33 AM

Thanks, Jim. Couldn't have said it better!
Mark

Jim McDougall · 1st March 2009, 03:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Thanks, Jim. Couldn't have said it better!
Mark

Hey Mark!!! Thank you so much

Norman McCormick · 1st March 2009, 01:24 PM

Hi Jim,
Thanks for the info as usual, I assume it is an Infantry sword or is there a possibility of a Naval connection. I gather at this period officially designated forms were not particularly evident and money, taste and fashion were more of an influence than strict form. Thanks again.
My Regards,
Norman.

Jim McDougall · 2nd March 2009, 01:59 AM

Hi Norman,
Just some more notes that I thought might be helpful, as this really is an extraordinary piece.
This lionhead form seems to have evolved from various hangers and short sabres from the German states during about the first half of the 18th century. There was of course considerable traffic between Germany and England through these times and the influences were well established. These lionheads began appearing on British swords about mid century, and are seen on many of the short sabres and cuttoes for officers shown in Nuemann ("Swords and Blades of the American Revolution").
It is noted that these pommels, as well as various components were actually stockpiled as officers would have swords custom made, and fashion of course being a driving force.
It seems most of these lionhead swords were brass, and those which were silver mounted often on the cuttoes (hunting hangers). It must be remembered that officers were always gentry, and often extravagant handsome weapons were a must, with hunting sword forms often favored. A number of the lionhead hunting swords are silver mounted with ivory and similar gadrooned bands.

The guard on this example seems to fall into, as mentioned, the period of high fashion with these officers swords c. 1770-90 when the spadroon type sabres (straight blade, often with five ball hilt ) and variations were also in voque.

I would presume this sabre to be cavalry, but with the great latitude enjoyed by officers in thier interpretations of fashion and flamboyance, it is always hard to say.

Since this is silver mounted and carries a hallmark, it seems it has great potential for research. There is a title by Leslie Southwick I believe, 'London Silver Hilts' or something like that. I think you may find the mark there and give a better timeframe, in fact weren't hallmarks issued for certain year or period?

Hope we can discover more...fantastic sword!!!!

All the best,
Jim

Norman McCormick · 2nd March 2009, 05:34 PM

Hi Jim,
Many thanks for the extra info. Do you really think it might Cavalry? I just assumed because the blade was only 26 3/4 inches it would be too short for use on horseback although dismounted would be fine. The only dedicated Cavalry Sabre I have is a Wilkinson 1821 Pattern Heavy Cavalry Officers Undress Sword which has a 36 inch blade so obviously quite a bit longer. I do remember the Tulwar Side Arm we talked about that had a short blade but it was early 20th Century and probably very much secondary to multi shot firearms. In the 18th century I would think the sword would have considerable more importance as most firearms were single shot and not without difficulty in terms of reloading. With regard to the initials contained within the oval cartouche stamped on the guard would they be the silversmith's or the cutler's mark? I can make out a T but the second letter is not easy to see so I have arranged to take the sword to a local jeweller in the hope that he can give me a positive I.D. on the initials. As far as I can see there are no date or assay stamps so if I can find the name of the hiltmaker I reckon I can get a time frame within which the sword would have been made. Will post more info as it becomes available.
My Regards,
Norman.

Norman McCormick · 2nd March 2009, 05:41 PM

Hi Royston,
Can't see an assay or date stamp only a pair of initials within an oval cartouche, it is tucked in tightly against the hilt and I am having a problem making it out. Am taking to a local jeweller to see if he can give me a positive I.D. on the initials so will post result when I've been. Many thanks for your interest.
My Regards,
Norman.

fernando · 2nd March 2009, 06:29 PM

Yes, the hallmark.
Try and take a close up picture ... at all costs

. It is essential. The other day i located a Forum deeply qualified in silver marks; maybe i can find it again.
But let's see if you have any luck with your local jeweller.
Fernando

Jim McDougall · 3rd March 2009, 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Jim,
Many thanks for the extra info. Do you really think it might Cavalry? I just assumed because the blade was only 26 3/4 inches it would be too short for use on horseback although dismounted would be fine. The only dedicated Cavalry Sabre I have is a Wilkinson 1821 Pattern Heavy Cavalry Officers Undress Sword which has a 36 inch blade so obviously quite a bit longer. I do remember the Tulwar Side Arm we talked about that had a short blade but it was early 20th Century and probably very much secondary to multi shot firearms. In the 18th century I would think the sword would have considerable more importance as most firearms were single shot and not without difficulty in terms of reloading. With regard to the initials contained within the oval cartouche stamped on the guard would they be the silversmith's or the cutler's mark? I can make out a T but the second letter is not easy to see so I have arranged to take the sword to a local jeweller in the hope that he can give me a positive I.D. on the initials. As far as I can see there are no date or assay stamps so if I can find the name of the hiltmaker I reckon I can get a time frame within which the sword would have been made. Will post more info as it becomes available.
My Regards,
Norman.

This would be a dress sabre, and these were often noticeably short as the longer swords were clumsy and most antisocial at events where these would have been worn. Officers typically carried more practical 'fighting swords' in combat, and these were of course usually more substantial. Despite the pretty swords often depicted in artwork of the period, these were often the artists licence, perhaps depicting actual dress swords in interpretations of celebrated battle events or portraiture. In this period, infantry officers swords seemed more of the courtsword, smallsword type. I think the advice everyone is suggesting on the hallmarks are great ideas.

Military fashion of the late 18th into the 19th century where regulation patterns began being recognized, officers had dress swords, undress for less formal events and often the fighting swords for campaign use. Naturally there were exceptions, but then that is always the case.

All the best,
Jim

Norman McCormick · 3rd March 2009, 11:22 AM

Hi Jim,
Didn't realise it was used as a dress item only. Am not sure what you mean by the advice re the hallmarks, there are no visible hallmarks that I can see only a makers mark, that's not to say there not there and I'm just missing them, but I think any hallmarks are being obscured by the hilt where it meets the guard it would be great if they were visible two minutes and I would have a date. Bonhams are having a 'Silver Day' in Glasgow on the 24th of this month I will take it along and see what an expert on 18th Cent silver can tell me.
My Regards,
Norman.

Royston · 2nd March 2009, 05:16 PM

Norman

Can we see the hallmark please.

My Brother-in-law is a silversmith. He may be able to identify it.

Regards
Royston

Norman McCormick · 2nd March 2009, 08:44 PM

Hi Guys,
After having a real good look I cannot find any hallmarks/date/assay stamps, the makers mark, T C or more likely T G, is nearly obscured because it is at the hilt where it joins the guard so possibly more marks are there but not visible. Was sword furniture subject to the same restrictions as 'normal' silver objects with regard to marking? The guard is definately solid silver as there is a small break in two of the bars in the slotted part and it's silver right through. I've handled enough silver to know the difference "I hope"

Many thanks to all those who have taken an interest.
My Regards,
Norman.

fernando · 2nd March 2009, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

...Was sword furniture subject to the same restrictions as 'normal' silver objects with regard to marking?

Yes, i guess it should.
Fernando

Norman McCormick · 2nd March 2009, 11:16 PM

Hi Fernando,
I guess your right, the more I look the more I am convinced if there are hallmarks, which all reason says there should be, that they are next to the makers mark but obscured by the hilt, see photo. The only way to see is to dismount the hilt

and I don't fancy doing that.
My Regards,
Norman.

Norman McCormick · 12th March 2009, 11:28 PM

Hi,
Thank-you gentlemen.
My Regards,
Norman.

Norman McCormick · 22nd May 2009, 10:40 PM

Hi Guys,
Saw the Bonhams weapons expert about this sword today. Although it is entirely possible that the hallmarks are under the hilt there is a distinct probability that although the guard and pommel are indeed solid silver that in order to evade paying duty/tax the parts were never sent to the Assay Office to be marked a not uncommon practice in his experience. Must have belonged to a British M.P.

In his opinion the slot hilt is of slightly unusual form and the piece is in good condition so all in all I'm very pleased. Thanks to all who took the time to post in this thread.
Regards,
Norman.

Jim McDougall · 23rd May 2009, 02:06 AM

Thanks for the update Norman . I had forgotten about this beautiful sword and the fun discussion we had......again, congratulations on an exceptional example.

All the best,
Jim

28th February 2009, 02:55 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Silver mounted Georgian hanger. Hi Guys, This arrived this morning, an off e-bay purchase, and I have to say I'm delighted and pleasantly surprised. Thinking it was a nice brass mounted hanger imagine my delight when I found it is a solid silver mounted hanger with a cutlers or silversmiths mark discreetly stamped on the guard, better photos of this mark to follow. Although my first love is for Indian Arms and Armour I am finding Georgian swords a fascinating subject, so many variations over quite a long period in our history and an era that shaped so much of todays political geography. Back to the sword, a 26 3/4 inch twin fullered blade 33 inches overall, solid silver guard and lion pommel with a bone or might be ivory? grip and silver wire wrap. The blade is light and flexible and I would say certainly a fighter, whether Navy or Army I don't know. I am aware swords of this type were manufactured in the U.K and U.S. but I am insufficiently knowledgeable to determine which so help needed here as well. Degree of restoration or not suggestions are also required. As always many thanks for all and any replies. Regards, Norman. Attached Images Last edited by Norman McCormick; 28th February 2009 at 10:15 PM.

28th February 2009, 05:25 PM	#2
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Most unusual I think it is a nice find and most unusual that the hilt is bone with what appears to be horn spacers all with silver fitings. There must be something about it to have these features, I do not know why but am hoping others can say with some further certainty. What I can point you to is the book, "the American Sword 1175-1945" by Harold Peterson. On page 62, plate 56, this piece sports the similar knuckle guard, similar carved hilt arrangement, lions head and curved blade with the fullering arangment that yours shows and the guard is described as having incised lines as yours does too. On page 212, plate 172, although in silver, the lions head is of higher quality as is yours, but it lacks the knuckle guard and the blade differs in the fullering arrangment and the silver mark also differs. Gav Last edited by freebooter; 28th February 2009 at 05:40 PM. Reason: More info found

2nd March 2009, 05:16 PM	#18
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 441	Hallmark Norman Can we see the hallmark please. My Brother-in-law is a silversmith. He may be able to identify it. Regards Royston

2nd March 2009, 11:16 PM	#21
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi Fernando, I guess your right, the more I look the more I am convinced if there are hallmarks, which all reason says there should be, that they are next to the makers mark but obscured by the hilt, see photo. The only way to see is to dismount the hilt and I don't fancy doing that. My Regards, Norman. Attached Images

28th February 2009, 06:47 PM	#3
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Very, very nice, Norman. Certainly ivory? XVIII century? If in a second thought you decide that Indian stuff is your sole hobby, this humble servant will be ready for trade . Fernando BTW, what is there to restore?

28th February 2009, 08:21 PM	#4
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi Guys, Thanks for the positive comments. Gav, the 'horn spacers' are upon closer inspection silver ribbon wound round the grooves with twisted silver wire bordering the ribbon. Searching the net I'm beginning to think it is a nicer find than I first thought, sheer luck I hasten to add. Fernando, I think for the moment trade between Portugal and Scotland will be limited to used sherry/port casks for the 'Whisky'. I think Ivory hilt as well after a better look. As to the restoration, there is some active rust on the blade and a lot of the silver is black with oxide. I haven't done anything yet before I get some opinions from the Forum Members including your good self of course. Thanks again. My Regards, Norman.

28th February 2009, 08:38 PM	#5
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	I would see about the active rust on the blade ( fine steel wool damped in, for instance, penetrating oil), but would not touch the silver, for as dark as it may be. ... in my humble opinnion, of course . Fernando

28th February 2009, 09:08 PM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,072	Holy Cow, where do you people find these things!!! Absolutely beautiful mid/late 18th century British hanger in fine form (no restoration needed ). Definitely one I would want in my collection, if you ever get tired of it, Norman, keep me in mind! -Mark

28th February 2009, 10:02 PM	#7
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi Mark, Thank you for your kind words. Is there anything specific that makes this British and is there any way of narrowing the date gap. My Regards, Norman.

28th February 2009, 11:50 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,760	Outstanding British officers lionhead, these with this hilt configuration are contemporary to the four slot hilts on Revolutionary War period c.1770's. The gadrooned bands on are pretty often seen on these as well, most of the British officers swords carried the straight cavalry backsword blade. Officers often had custom sabres made, as this one seems to be. I'll try to dig out Neumann to find more, that is all I can recall without references. Very nicely done!!! All the best, Jim

1st March 2009, 02:33 AM	#9
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,072	Thanks, Jim. Couldn't have said it better! Mark

1st March 2009, 01:24 PM	#11
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi Jim, Thanks for the info as usual, I assume it is an Infantry sword or is there a possibility of a Naval connection. I gather at this period officially designated forms were not particularly evident and money, taste and fashion were more of an influence than strict form. Thanks again. My Regards, Norman.

2nd March 2009, 01:59 AM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,760	Hi Norman, Just some more notes that I thought might be helpful, as this really is an extraordinary piece. This lionhead form seems to have evolved from various hangers and short sabres from the German states during about the first half of the 18th century. There was of course considerable traffic between Germany and England through these times and the influences were well established. These lionheads began appearing on British swords about mid century, and are seen on many of the short sabres and cuttoes for officers shown in Nuemann ("Swords and Blades of the American Revolution"). It is noted that these pommels, as well as various components were actually stockpiled as officers would have swords custom made, and fashion of course being a driving force. It seems most of these lionhead swords were brass, and those which were silver mounted often on the cuttoes (hunting hangers). It must be remembered that officers were always gentry, and often extravagant handsome weapons were a must, with hunting sword forms often favored. A number of the lionhead hunting swords are silver mounted with ivory and similar gadrooned bands. The guard on this example seems to fall into, as mentioned, the period of high fashion with these officers swords c. 1770-90 when the spadroon type sabres (straight blade, often with five ball hilt ) and variations were also in voque. I would presume this sabre to be cavalry, but with the great latitude enjoyed by officers in thier interpretations of fashion and flamboyance, it is always hard to say. Since this is silver mounted and carries a hallmark, it seems it has great potential for research. There is a title by Leslie Southwick I believe, 'London Silver Hilts' or something like that. I think you may find the mark there and give a better timeframe, in fact weren't hallmarks issued for certain year or period? Hope we can discover more...fantastic sword!!!! All the best, Jim

2nd March 2009, 05:34 PM	#13
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi Jim, Many thanks for the extra info. Do you really think it might Cavalry? I just assumed because the blade was only 26 3/4 inches it would be too short for use on horseback although dismounted would be fine. The only dedicated Cavalry Sabre I have is a Wilkinson 1821 Pattern Heavy Cavalry Officers Undress Sword which has a 36 inch blade so obviously quite a bit longer. I do remember the Tulwar Side Arm we talked about that had a short blade but it was early 20th Century and probably very much secondary to multi shot firearms. In the 18th century I would think the sword would have considerable more importance as most firearms were single shot and not without difficulty in terms of reloading. With regard to the initials contained within the oval cartouche stamped on the guard would they be the silversmith's or the cutler's mark? I can make out a T but the second letter is not easy to see so I have arranged to take the sword to a local jeweller in the hope that he can give me a positive I.D. on the initials. As far as I can see there are no date or assay stamps so if I can find the name of the hiltmaker I reckon I can get a time frame within which the sword would have been made. Will post more info as it becomes available. My Regards, Norman.

2nd March 2009, 05:41 PM	#14
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi Royston, Can't see an assay or date stamp only a pair of initials within an oval cartouche, it is tucked in tightly against the hilt and I am having a problem making it out. Am taking to a local jeweller to see if he can give me a positive I.D. on the initials so will post result when I've been. Many thanks for your interest. My Regards, Norman.

2nd March 2009, 06:29 PM	#15
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Yes, the hallmark. Try and take a close up picture ... at all costs . It is essential. The other day i located a Forum deeply qualified in silver marks; maybe i can find it again. But let's see if you have any luck with your local jeweller. Fernando

3rd March 2009, 11:22 AM	#17
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi Jim, Didn't realise it was used as a dress item only. Am not sure what you mean by the advice re the hallmarks, there are no visible hallmarks that I can see only a makers mark, that's not to say there not there and I'm just missing them, but I think any hallmarks are being obscured by the hilt where it meets the guard it would be great if they were visible two minutes and I would have a date. Bonhams are having a 'Silver Day' in Glasgow on the 24th of this month I will take it along and see what an expert on 18th Cent silver can tell me. My Regards, Norman.

2nd March 2009, 08:44 PM	#19
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi Guys, After having a real good look I cannot find any hallmarks/date/assay stamps, the makers mark, T C or more likely T G, is nearly obscured because it is at the hilt where it joins the guard so possibly more marks are there but not visible. Was sword furniture subject to the same restrictions as 'normal' silver objects with regard to marking? The guard is definately solid silver as there is a small break in two of the bars in the slotted part and it's silver right through. I've handled enough silver to know the difference "I hope" Many thanks to all those who have taken an interest. My Regards, Norman.

12th March 2009, 11:28 PM	#22
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi, Thank-you gentlemen. My Regards, Norman.

22nd May 2009, 10:40 PM	#23
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi Guys, Saw the Bonhams weapons expert about this sword today. Although it is entirely possible that the hallmarks are under the hilt there is a distinct probability that although the guard and pommel are indeed solid silver that in order to evade paying duty/tax the parts were never sent to the Assay Office to be marked a not uncommon practice in his experience. Must have belonged to a British M.P. In his opinion the slot hilt is of slightly unusual form and the piece is in good condition so all in all I'm very pleased. Thanks to all who took the time to post in this thread. Regards, Norman.

23rd May 2009, 02:06 AM	#24
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,760	Thanks for the update Norman . I had forgotten about this beautiful sword and the fun discussion we had......again, congratulations on an exceptional example. All the best, Jim