Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 2nd May 2020, 09:59 PM   #1
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 7,021
Default Italian dagger 17th century??

Hello,

The auction house has described it as 17th century dagger, I personally doubt this age a little bit. What do you think? Or know! It's is 22,5 cm long.

Thank you in advance for every comment!
Attached Images
  
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd May 2020, 07:02 AM   #2
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,465
Default

Definitely not 17 century.

This is a 19th century dagger. I am also inclined to say it is Spanish but it is more a hunch than educated oppinion.
mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd May 2020, 07:45 AM   #3
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 7,021
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
Definitely not 17 century.

This is a 19th century dagger.


Thank you Marius, exactly what I thought!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
I am also inclined to say it is Spanish but it is more a hunch than educated oppinion.


Could it be French? This was my guess?

Regards,
Detlef
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd May 2020, 09:45 AM   #4
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,465
Default

It could be French but the type of construction, materials and etching on the blade are somehow consistent with 19th century Toledo factory works.

Yet, it is of a rather classic shape that would be very difficult to precisely locate.

On second thoughts, noticing the small size of the dagger, this might be what is called "prostitute dagger." You may Google this term for images and will see some similar ones but also with disputable origins.

But let's hope that some forum colleagues know better!
Attached Images
 

Last edited by mariusgmioc : 3rd May 2020 at 10:04 AM.
mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd May 2020, 10:56 AM   #5
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 7,021
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
On second thoughts, noticing the small size of the dagger, this might be what is called "prostitute dagger." You may Google this term for images and will see some similar ones but also with disputable origins.


Hello Marius,

This is exactly what I have had in mind!

Regards,
Detlef
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd May 2020, 12:38 PM   #6
BUCC_Guy
Member
 
BUCC_Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Tennessee, USA
Posts: 24
Default

I thought it was a naval dirk, but that small size would indicate a prostitute’s dagger.
BUCC_Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd May 2020, 12:47 PM   #7
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 7,021
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BUCC_Guy
I thought it was a naval dirk, but that small size would indicate a prostitute’s dagger.


Hello BUCC_Guy,

I am not an expert by naval dirks but can't them similar small? Look for example this beauty which get sold by ebay recently: https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-GA...=p2047675.l2557 It's with 8,25" (approx. 21 cm) a little bit smaller as the dagger in question.

Regards,
Detlef
Attached Images
 
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd May 2020, 12:57 PM   #8
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,465
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
Hello BUCC_Guy,

I am not an expert by naval dirks but can't them similar small? Look for example this beauty which get sold by ebay recently: https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-GA...=p2047675.l2557 It's with 8,25" (approx. 21 cm) a little bit smaller as the dagger in question.

Regards,
Detlef


Hello Detlef,

The EBay description says "Garter" dagger/dirk. Garter meaning Strumpfband in German, so again pointing towards "prostitute dagger"...


Dirk is nothing but a longer straight dagger.
mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd May 2020, 01:08 PM   #9
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 7,021
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
Hello Detlef,

The EBay description says "Garter" dagger/dirk. Garter meaning Strumpfband in German, so again pointing towards "prostitute dagger"...


Dirk is nothing but a longer straight dagger.


Hello Marius,

You never should give something to ebay descriptions or auction house descriptions (see for example the description from the auction house for the example in question)! And of course I know what garter dagger mean!

Have a look to this older thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ight=naval+dirk

Have special a look to the posted picture from "Small Arms of the Sea Services" by Robert H. Rankin, see attachment. The dagger by the ebay auction was without doubt a naval dirk.

Best regards,
Detlef
Attached Images
 
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd May 2020, 01:14 PM   #10
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 7,021
Default

Comparison!
Attached Images
  
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd May 2020, 06:40 PM   #11
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,465
Default

Very interesting!

I was not aware of this type of small naval dirk.

Thank you Detlef for the explanations.

Anyhow, the one in the original posting is significantly different, much more towards a "garter dagger" (sounds better than "prostitute dagger").
mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd May 2020, 07:25 PM   #12
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 7,021
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
Very interesting!

I was not aware of this type of small naval dirk.

Thank you Detlef for the explanations.


You are welcome Marius! I have my "knowledge" also only from the given thread.



Quote:
Originally Posted by mariusgmioc
Anyhow, the one in the original posting is significantly different, much more towards a "garter dagger" (sounds better than "prostitute dagger").


And yes, I agree with you complete. And I like the term "garter dagger" as well a lot more!

Regards,
Detlef

Last edited by Sajen : 3rd May 2020 at 08:28 PM.
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd May 2020, 08:34 PM   #13
David R
Member
 
David R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 591
Default

In the UK they are sometimes called "Muff Daggers" as in hidden in a hand muff, the cold weather hand protector.
David R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd May 2020, 08:43 PM   #14
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 7,021
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David R
In the UK they are sometimes called "Muff Daggers" as in hidden in a hand muff, the cold weather hand protector.


Hello David,

Never heard this term before. But rember that I needed not long ago to explain my son what a "muff" is. Funnily it's the same term in Germany, we call it as well "muff".

Regards,
Detlef
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th May 2020, 03:58 AM   #15
M ELEY
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NC, U.S.A.
Posts: 1,679
Default

Gambler's dirk or prostitute dirk as carried in their garter. I'd say third quarter of the 19th century. I've handled an number of naval dress dirks, but this one strikes me more as a Western-type dagger (many of them were Sheffield-made and sent to the American SW. They fit in nicely with Old West collections). Note this old Cowens auction below. The quillons on the guards of these are typically spherical.

https://www.cowanauctions.com/lot/i...dled-dirk-52302
M ELEY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th May 2020, 05:51 PM   #16
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 7,021
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by M ELEY
Gambler's dirk or prostitute dirk as carried in their garter. I'd say third quarter of the 19th century. I've handled an number of naval dress dirks, but this one strikes me more as a Western-type dagger (many of them were Sheffield-made and sent to the American SW. They fit in nicely with Old West collections). Note this old Cowens auction below. The quillons on the guards of these are typically spherical.

https://www.cowanauctions.com/lot/i...dled-dirk-52302


Thank you very much! Yes there are some similarities between the both, thank`s for pointing out this!

Regards,
Detlef
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 06:25 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.