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Old 2nd February 2016, 05:19 PM   #1
fernando
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Default A basket hilted swords for comments

I know next to nothing about these swords. But for a couple years i was fascinated with this one; perhaps because i had seen it in a fellow collector's house and i knew i could manage to acquire it. So i did and it has just arrived.
With its four kings heads interspersed with the name ANDREA FARARA, i realize this is a genuine blade forged by Johannes Wundes but, what do i know ?
The 'unusual' bronze hilt with a brass wired grip and turks heads look consistent ... to me.
The double edged blade measures 87,5 cms. Sword total length 104 cms. with a width 37 mm. and thickeness 6 mm at the forte. POB 8,5 cms. from the hilt guard. Weight 1110 grams.
Could i have some help in analizing this sword, please ?


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Old 3rd February 2016, 06:00 PM   #2
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Most interesting basket hilt, especially this blade.
Certainly appears to be of the style of English dragoon swords of 18th c. but the wire, turks heads and pommel suggest we might check elsewhere. Perhaps Sweden or the Continent and officers sword?

The kings heads of course are normally associated with Wundes, but these used as punction amidst the lettering for ANDREA FERARA profoundly atypical.

Worth a look into Mazansky, European Markings (Kinman) and some of the other references on marks might be helpful. Looking forward to other views especially Ulfberth and Jasper.
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Old 3rd February 2016, 08:37 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
The kings heads of course are normally associated with Wundes, but these used as punction amidst the lettering for ANDREA FERARA profoundly atypical...

Thank you Jim but ... this is not that much atypical. Since i started lurking at this sword and browsed the Net about possible similarities, i found a couple examples with this specific type of markings. Actually at this very moment i spotted a sword sold at Thomasdelmar with the same name inscription (Andrea Farara and not Ferara) and with the same interspersed four kings figure.
I too would like so much to see Jasper and Ulfberth coming in on this one.


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Old 3rd February 2016, 08:58 PM   #4
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Thanks Fernando, I had not recalled seeing that configuration offhand, but hadn't checked resources yet at my note. It is good that you found that other example, and now I am curious. I have seen the number of kings head vary but mostly in threes, and the note I recalled with four was verbal and seemed sort of an anomaly relative to the many other threes and singles.

C'mon Ulfberth and Jasper!!!
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Old 4th February 2016, 09:54 AM   #5
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@Jim and Fernando,
you should ask E.B. Erickson and Cathey.

they know a lot about this type of basket hilt.

I'm more in continental weapons from 1000-1600, with the exception of weapons which are carried in the Netherlands, which runs until 1800.

best,
Jasper
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Old 4th February 2016, 10:53 AM   #6
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In any case, thanks for your prompt reaction, Jasper
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Old 4th February 2016, 02:13 PM   #7
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Hi Fernando,

First let me say that there is no doubt that this is an Original sword and all parts belong together, a untouched and pure sword.
Im no expert on basket hilts but my first impression was English mid 18th C. it could be European to.
Here is what I found, ( see pics ) its not the same but it does have the kings heads and brass basket hilt. Altough the blade is in the style of the late 16th C , I believe this could be a German 18th C blade for export, including the Ferara name for quality or economical reasons, this is of course speculation.

kind regards

Ulfberth
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Old 4th February 2016, 05:56 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Thank you Jim but ... this is not that much atypical. Since i started lurking at this sword and browsed the Net about possible similarities, i found a couple examples with this specific type of markings. Actually at this very moment i spotted a sword sold at Thomasdelmar with the same name inscription (Andrea Farara and not Ferara) and with the same interspersed four kings figure.
I too would like so much to see Jasper and Ulfberth coming in on this one.


.



Mea culpa Nando, what I 'should' have said is that the grouping was unusual to me, as clearly you found another example quite readily. I suppose I am simply more accustomed to seeing the kings head grouping in threes as seen on the example posted by Ulfberth.

I would note that the example you posted (in #3)is a basket hilt of 'Stirling' form c.1715 (Darling, 1974, p.82) so interesting to see blade so marked in that time frame.

If I am not mistaken, the hilt on your example discussed in this thread is brass. It would seem that dragoon swords were produced in brass in Glasgow around 1720s (Mazansky, 2005, p.108).

I think Ulfberths inclination toward English character is correct though I had also thought this might be a Continental piece. In checking Danish and Dutch sources I found nothing in this type basket corresponding, and the pommel redirects to British. It is actually a combination of Mazansky typology IV and VI, with somewhat taller oblate form (Mazansky, op,cit.p23).

I am inclined to think this is indeed a British dragoon sword, but with the wire grip and Turks head to an officer. The blade is most certainly of c. 1715+ and Solingen, and as shown with these kings heads intermittent with the well established ANDREA FERARA name which catered to Scottish market. The kings head with beard do not correspond to the early Wundes form and are facing opposite from examples shown. The bearded versions are of Johannes Wundes the elder 1560-1610 and later Wundes group had no beard and more stylized.
The blade is of course far later than that type kings head of the early Wundes.

The 'different' application of these kings heads as punction with the ANDREA FERARA name suggests to me (as noted by Ulfberth as well) that these blades though from Solingen were produced with spurious kings heads alluding to the Wundes makers (Weyersberg did not adopt the mark until 1774) and obviously commercially gauged, in numbers unclear but of the period shown.

Most dragoon sword blades of this period early 18th century were backsword, but officers had the option to broadswords. Many of the Scottish units in British ranks, particularly officers had brass swords in the post 1715 period and later of course.
This again looks like an officers sword, probably 'garrison' made in either Glasgow or Edinburgh, more likely Edinburgh c. 1715-50 .

Works consulted:
"British Basket Hilt Swords" , Dr. Cyril Mazansky, 2005 (p.216, p212,.p.108, p.23)
"Blanke Wapens", J.P.Puype, Amsterdam, 1981, Dutch arms
"Gamle Danske Militaer Vaben" , Th. Moller, Copenhagen, 1963, Danish arms
"British Basket Hilt Cavalry Swords " , Anthony Darling, Canadian Journal of Arms Collecting , Vol. 7, #3, 1974, p. 82, p.92)

"European Makers of Edged Weapons, Their Marks", Staffan Kinman, Stockholm, 2015, (p.119)

"German Swords and Sword Makers" Richard Bezdek, 2000, p.160-161.
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Old 4th February 2016, 07:17 PM   #9
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Thank you Jim for the very complete research and arguments.
It seems that the name Andrea Ferrara was needed on every broadsword or backsword blade from the late 16th C to the late 18th C especially if the blades were intended Scottish or English market.

Kind regards

Ulfberth
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Old 4th February 2016, 07:54 PM   #10
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Yes, great input Jim.
Let me digest all said and register it.
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Old 5th February 2016, 03:41 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
...Since i started lurking at this sword and browsed the Net about possible similarities, i found a couple examples with this specific type of markings...

One of which i have just recalled having kept in my hard disk, concerning an announcement in the Glasgow Herald published in Nov. 1969, in that an auction to be held at Christie's would include five rare swords that belonged to the Marquis of Tweeddale ...

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Old 5th February 2016, 04:08 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
One of which i have just recalled having kept in my hard disk, concerning an announcement in the Glasgow Herald published in Nov. 1969, in that an auction to be held at Christie's would include five rare swords that belonged to the Marquis of Tweeddale ...

.


Well Fernando I'm speechless
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Old 5th February 2016, 04:29 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Yes, great input Jim.
Let me digest all said and register it.




Bon appe'tit Fernando!

I am with Ulfberth , speechless on this tidbit on this sword.
Wow, '69, the summer of love ,man!

So we have EIGHT kingsheads, along with Andrea Ferara. Maybe these became a kind of talismanic or quality symbol, and the more kingsheads the more mojo.
I am now compelled to find more of the kings head phenomenon data, and to discover how many variations and configurations can be catalogued
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Old 5th February 2016, 05:15 PM   #14
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Wait a minute, guys .
By eight kingsheads, they mean four on each side; as Andrea on one side and Ferara on the other.

... Or am i missing something here ?
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Old 6th February 2016, 12:42 AM   #15
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Default Brass basket Hilt for comment

HI Fernando

Great Basket, you must be very excited to acquire it. Unfortunately with basket hilts the blade don't help us much as they where rarely of local manufacture and everyone wanted some version of Farara on them.

This brings us back to the hilt, which at first I thought British dragoon variation, however having now become aware of the popularity of Basket hilts in France I am leaning toward s this one being French or continental. Haven't found one with these elegant rounded bars in my data base yet so I will dig into my library and see if something pops up.

The wonderful thing about basket hilts is the variations are endless and keep up guessing. As I said great sword, wish it was in my collection.

Cheers Cathey and Rex
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Old 6th February 2016, 03:06 AM   #16
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Hi Fernando,

found this one in my data base, very similar with a plain blade. Michael long had it listed as a European Cavalry sword.

Cheers Cathey and Rex
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Old 6th February 2016, 10:32 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
Wait a minute, guys .
By eight kingsheads, they mean four on each side; as Andrea on one side and Ferara on the other.

... Or am i missing something here ?



Actually no, but here is another good lesson in accepting data from a 'news item' verbatim as accurate. In the reference you posted from 1969, the text reads the blade is marked with " THE eight kings head mark" and does not specify that the number was inclusive from 'both' sides of the blade, but suggests seen as one group. The article does not specify that ANDREA and FERARA were on opposing sides of the blade either.
I guess its kinda like using art to research weaponry , in a thoroughly riveting concurrent discussion on another thread. Always need to verify!!

Cathey, thank you so much for the outstanding reference to this European example! as well as cross referencing to your excellent thread on basket hilts which thankfully maintains fantastic momentum. It is great to have this expanded view of basket hilted forms elsewhere in Europe.
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Old 6th February 2016, 11:25 AM   #18
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Excelent, Cathey ...
Thank you ever so much for the great info and convincing pictures.
The fact that you wish this sword was in your collection is for me the best certificate of quality.
So French it will be.
Concerning the blade with its 'marketing' inscriptions, but with a very nice and consistent look, still we could guess it is a Solingen work, don't you think ?
I have read in article that Solingen supplied most of the blades to France until 1729, when the manufactory at Klingethal in Alsace was established by workmen of Solingen ...

Thanks again
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Old 6th February 2016, 02:20 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
...In the reference you posted from 1969, the text reads the blade is marked with " THE eight kings head mark" and does not specify that the number was inclusive from 'both' sides of the blade, but suggests seen as one group. The article does not specify that ANDREA and FERARA were on opposing sides of the blade either...

Just a question of approach, Jim. As i am not a 'hard core' connoisseur, it is for me easier to consider that, the persons or sources that described the sword for the article, were not familiar with the antique weaponry universe, so they decided to count all Kings heads in a whole bunch. Also the same occurred with the Andrea Ferara quotation, while most certainly each one of the two names appeared in the different sides of the, as so often happens.


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Old 6th February 2016, 05:17 PM   #20
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Its always good to see we are in complete accord Fernando, as what I was saying is that 'news reporters' did not exactly describe things in terms which us 'hard core' connoisseurs could relate to. I thought that was what you were describing.

I had forgotten all about Cathey's earlier posts concerning French versions of basket hilts there, and that would perfectly explain the 'European' context supposed by Mr. Long in his description. It is quite reasonable that this 'type' hilt would be present with the numbers of expatriate Jacobites whose communities were ever mounting in France.

I wanted to add to your excellent discovery of the news item with another entry I found in :
"Notes on Four Basket Hilted Swords Belonging to the Society" by Parker Brewis , read April 26, 1899.
"Archaeologia Aeliana", The Society of Antiquaries of Newcastle Upon Tyne" Vol. XXI.
This regarding a basket hilt 'Andrea Ferara' , which notes, "....there are also many bearing a crowne kings head at EVERY SECOND LETTER - this was the mark of Johannes Wundes of Solingen 1560-1610".

As it seems that this progenitor of the Wundes 'dynasty' had his mark punched on a good number of sword blades, but 'usually' in threes, as one with the famed stylized running wolf on a Munich sword c. 1600. On this was his name also broadly inscribed IOHANES WUNDES -SOLIDEO GLORIA.
The triple marks appeared as such on each side of the blade, but with different accompanying words.

Interestingly I found another blade with FOUR kings heads in this linear stacked configuration, the blade similar with the profiled lines along blade edges. In this case, there was no Andrea Ferara, but I need to confirm whether it was on a Scottish sword.

Whatever the case, it does seem that the four kings heads did occur on clearly Solingen blades as described , but there were examples which omitted the Andrea Ferara . It is generally held that the Andrea Ferara appellation was indeed a Scottish market attraction, and on one sword was X ANDREWA FARRERA X which alludes to the notion that 'Andrew' represented St. Andrew (as with these St. Andrews crosses at each end) and the Ferrara (= Lat. ferrum= iron). This is of course highly debatable and outside the scope here, but the point being that the Andrew Ferara within the letters appeared in a number of 'Scottish' cases as you have shown.

As very much agreed by us all, this is an outstanding example and in my opinion quite plausibly to a Jacobite in French regions, as per Cathey's interesting notes. As you have well noted, Solingen was indeed supplier to French makers in many cases, in fact an Abraham Wundes was one of the first makers in Klingenthal c. 1730.

Could this possibly be a Wundes descendant in early Klingenthal using a variation of his hereditary markings, and to Scottish Jacobites in France, further using hilt style for British dragoon swords as produced in the garrison centers?
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Old 7th February 2016, 11:34 AM   #21
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Thank you for input, Jim.
If i follow it correctly ...
Concerning the system of striking the crowned Kings head at every second letter, if we apply a certain (correct?) reading criteria, such is the habit prevailing in the marking my sword ... whoever wished to profit on Wundes charisma.
What i didn't know and have just learnt is that, such mark is carved over the entrance in the house in Johannes Strasse. Having been registered in 1584, this mark was in Peter Wundes possession by 1719, his grandson having sold it in 1774 to Peter Wiersberg.
Concerning blades, i follow your reasoning on the Solingen-Klingenthal route.
Whereas concerning hilts and the Jacobite lead, in my ignorance i am facing a vice versa situation. I have just read, something not knew to you is that, according to Harold L. Peterson (for one?), the basket hilt originated on the Continent, whence it was adopted in England during the Civil War for use by Cavalry, and indeed continued as the Cavalry manís sword until well into the XVIII century.
Whether the Scots too kit up through contact with Cromwellian horse, or acquired it straight from the Continent, seems uncertain.
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Old 7th February 2016, 01:56 PM   #22
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Thanks Fernando, I think we are on the same course here, and I do recall the Peterson entries, which always seemed an unusual place to find data on Scottish swords as for me he was always about 'American' swords. What I often forget of course is the huge numbers of Scots who came to this country (then England) and of course brought with them their trusty basket hilts. In the pirate lore on Blackbeard, it was long held that british Lt. Maynard held the victory over the legendary pirate, however in recent years it was revealed that it was a Highlander , with his trusty basket hilt who actually dealt the fatal blows to him.

Just as I often had overlooked the diffusion of these distinct basket hilts away from Scotland to these shores, I had never really realized how many of them probably went to France along with the Jacobites, and as such, how many examples were indeed likely produced there in accord with their preferences.

The detail you include on the Wundes group is most telling, and it is most interesting that 1584 is also the year supposed of the death of the fabled Andrea Ferara if I recall correctly from some of these readings. I am not sure how that would play into these findings and material, however it seems curiously coincidental. I am not sure there has ever been a consensus on whether or not this person actually existed (along with his brother) or if this is more legend.

What is certain is that this name/term was legion to the Scots in the character of the blades of their beloved basket hilts.
In the instance of these interspersed konigskopf (crowned king heads) with the letters of ANDREA FERARA, it does seem anomalous relative to the usual application of the FERARA name on the blades, and it is most tempting to consider the possibility of Klingenthal origin given the Wundes connection noted c. 1730. Naturally Scottish blades had long been established coming from Solingen already, and this rather innovative melding of the FERARA name so favored, with the well known mark of Wundes certainly would have been attractive to these 'hard core' Scottish Jacobites on the Continent.

It is most exciting to see this rather esoteric part of the history of Scottish basket hilts and its hopefully supportable development. Looks like you may have opened a new chapter with these kings head and Ferara the leading clue!
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Old 8th February 2016, 11:08 AM   #23
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Yes Jim, indeed the article i first found was written by Peterson, about the American sword; but what i was browsing on was the king's head, which he eventualy brings about in his work, when fixing the origin of Amercian swords in the colonial times.
But what i have read on a second article, and not from Peterson as i mistakenly quoted, is one of Michael Barthorp, in his work the 'Jacobite Rebellions', in which he clearly states that, the basket hilt went from the Continent to Britain (and not the other way round), to replace the two handed claymore (claidheamh mor), the blade of many being dut down for such purpose. This 'inverted route' is something that either i missed or you didn't yet specificaly comment on ... and i would like to hear about.
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Old 8th February 2016, 04:38 PM   #24
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Hi Fernando,
Indeed the Peterson book brought up the kings head marks and basket hilts in America, as was of course well established in his book on arms in Colonial America. That reference along with George Nuemann's book on swords of the American Revolution carried the scope of European arms in this country quite well.
The article you mention by Barthorp, is that the Osprey reference?

In any case, in the development of the Scottish basket hilt itself, as I have understood, especially through the extensive work by the late Claude Blair, the developed basket hilt did evolve from the Continent. It does seem that influence came to British shores quite early in English swords (i.e. examples found on the wreck of the Mary Rose), but that primary influence on the Scottish hilts came from dusagge (cf. Sinclair sabres) of mostly northern Europe. These heavy basket hilt sabres were impressive to the Scots who served in these regions as mercenaries, and began evolving into the well known Scottish forms around 16th century. There is a good deal of confusion on just how much cross diffusion between the developing Scottish forms and English examples, but the characters began taking on certain distinctions independently.

With these basket hilt forms which seem to have expatriated to France as described earlier, it was not a developmental move, but more a geopolitical transference. It does seem that more fully developed guards in hilts were present in other countries some time after the Scottish and English hilts evolved in Britain, but they seem likely independent of these and quite likely from the same root with the closed guard dusagges.

That is what I have understood and recall from researches on these years ago, and I hope it makes sense. These are incredibly fascinating swords, and another of my addictions (along with cup hilts ! )

All the best
Jim
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Old 14th May 2020, 03:28 PM   #25
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... i kept looking at this sword hilt and couldn't stop thinking that its look was so dull. Until i ended up not resisting to give it some cleaning. I know i have commited a crime but ...


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Old 15th May 2020, 12:37 AM   #26
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Brass looks best cleaned up as it would have been while in use. I never worry about removing "patina" oxidation as it will always come back in time and no one will know it had been cleaned. I've used muriatic acid and water mixed at a lower amount to clean brass but not strip all oxidation off, just the dark brown/black. With brass you can always limit the amount you clean it.
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Old 15th May 2020, 10:49 AM   #27
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I see no harm in cleaning objects to restore some of their former glory. After all this is what they looked like when they were in use. The sabre in my profile pic was grimy with dirt but I cleaned it with no regrets.
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Old 15th May 2020, 11:16 AM   #28
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Much obliged for your support, Gentlemen .


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