Anglo Indian sword - ID needed!

[manishkulkarni]

Hi All

I picked up this beautiful Anglo Indian sword at the Kempton park fair yesterday. It seems like a late 1700s french montmorency type blade and late 1800s blade, so it might be one of the french ruled or influenced princely states, or indeed British made blade in French style who knows!

But the royal crest on it remains a mystery, none of the experts at rhe fair had a clue and Google searches yielded nothing.

The scabbard is beautifully made and stitched using fine wire loops.

I'd be very grateful if any of you is able to identify the crest or tell me anything more about this sword - or indeed point to someone who might be able to help, I'd be truly very grateful!

Many thanks!

Manish

[MacCathain]

The "arrows" in the guard motif are reminiscent of depictions of Jupiter's thunderbolts, but the classic representation includes several other elements that aren't apparent here.

The rather crude casting of the guard suggests it wasn't made in western Europe. The hilt appears to be based on that of a p1822 British infantry officer's sword.

[milandro]

I would call this " lightning symbolism" on the guard , thunderbolts if you wish has a military connection with this symbol is communications, Telegraphists, Radio officer

[kronckew]

The wire loops used to sew up the scabbard are often found on Ottoman scabbards.

[mariusgmioc]

The scabbard is apparently a replacement and looks Turkish Ottoman.

[Jim McDougall]

Certainly appears to be something produced during the British Raj in India, likely for some quasi military guard or police/security force, and inherently copying the British 'gothic' style officers hilts of 1822.

The cartouche on these typically had the cypher for Queen Victoria, however as British swordmakers later in the century began producing swords for other colonial entities, they often substituted pertinent other devices.

In this case, this is clearly a copy made in India replicating the feathered backstrap and cartouche in 'Gothic' structured hilt. The 'thunderbolts' likely represent the Vajra symbolism in Tantric Buddhism, and as noted, may apply to use of this sword in some uniform capacity for a unit as mentioned.

The scabbard is as noted an Ottoman associated (in style) example.

[A.alnakkas]

can you take additional detailed images of the blade?

[milandro]

as said before this is an insignia common among several armies in the world depicting a radio operator

the brass badge is by a RFC radio operator, the other one, probably Luftwaffe, is pretty much identical to the " crest" (Insigna) on the sword. Thus it's a western symbol.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Milandro! Positive support for the military application of this symbol. This is truly unique and hoping we might find more on the military units that would incorporate these communications specialists.

[milandro]

well, I found quite a few armies with similar insignia for radio communication specialist

The German army has the closest resemblance


But the workmanship of the guard is very very crude , I cannot believe that this would be an army issued weapon. Certainly NOT if this was made in the radio days, even the earliest it would be , at best the early 1900.

The " crest " is, I believe, not at all a crest of any sort. Germany did have colonial troops operating in many theaters at the time and its insignia MAY have inspired someone who ha nothing to do directly with Germany to make such a weapon.

[Jim McDougall]

Well reasoned and a most salient perspective. As noted, this hilt is very crudely produced and clearly in imitation of the British M1822 infantry officers brass 'Gothic' style hilt, as I previously mentioned.

Obviously this is not an 'army' weapon, so what I should have specified is what possible 'quasi' military units or perhaps security forces might have adopted such a 'thunderbolt' symbol. The suggestion that this symbol was common as a radio operators insignia in many armies worldwide, along with the illustrations is compelling. Also quite apparent is that the thunderbolt (lightning) used in this parlance aligned with radio communications would be unlikely before the use of the radio began.

The symbol was first suggested as a 'crest', then further noted in subsequent post as not being a crest (I agree), and with the suggestion this may have inspired its use in cartouche in imitation of same in the British style hilt. While it has been noted that the thunderbolt symbol was used by MANY armies, and that its resemblance is closest to the German version......and Germany had numerous colonial theaters....why would the BRITISH sword form be the prototype for the hilt if in a German colony?

German swords of the latter 19th century used the oval cartouche in various hilt styles (M1889) which typically placed devices and cyphers of the states etc. However the hilt form on this example is entirely British.

In North Africa, European blades were heavily imported for centuries and used in the broadswords of the Sahara and Sudan. Often these blades had of course various symbols and markings such as the familiar cross and orb, the twig and others. These markings were often seen in entirely different perspective by the native population, for example...the cross and orb was seen as the drum and sticks, symbolically important in tribal parlance signifying a chief or other highly important figure. Other markings of western' origin were also translated into the tribal representation.

In India, while the British occupied and administrated the subcontinent and its princely states as well as other associated regions included in the colonial empire, most of the forces were native units and para military levees. In the private sector, large companies, infrastructure with transportation functions as well as factories etc. maintained private security forces. There are numbers of weapons of this nature used in this capacity, either obsolete military arms, or in many cases privately produced imitations typically cruder and less robust than the old military weapons.

I wanted to better explain my previous suggestion noting accord with the notion of 'western' symbolism inspiring elements of a hilt form copied as an ersatz sword for a quasi military unit, but seen in of course quite different parlance (as pertaining to the Vajra). With the primary basis of the hilt being British, and India part of the British Commonwealth, and the fact that such weapons produced in India during the Raj, this seems not only possible, but likely.

Finally, with the German insignia reference: It does seem that while I cannot speak to the use of the thunderbolt with reference to radio operators etc. worldwide, I do know that Germany in the 1930s (pre WWII) and the unfortunate regime evolving used early historic, religious and cultural symbols in much of its regalia.
The SS and related elements used symbols from runes (collectively used term)and the swastika of course from Buddhist symbolism. The Vajra of course derives from Tantric Buddhism.

Is it possible that the thunderbolt, used as symbol for the electricity based communications insignia in modern armies was in fact adopted from such earlier symbolism in the same manner? thus the application I originally suggested might have had the same root?

[milandro]

I think we agree that the thunderbolt is used in several countries, although the German one most closely resembles the one on the sword's guard.

Telegraphy corps was certainly the closest ancestor to the radio corps and it too used electricity as a symbol, which is clearly akin to lightning in the imagination of whomever thought of these insignias.

Telegraphy of course evolved from the signal corps and indeed some signal corps insignias show the lighting(s) along with flags.



Also intelligence units have the lightning as a symbol and this comes from the use of " radio" too

http://www.asalives.org/ASAONLINE/herald01.htm

"....The Reserve Army Security Branch was created in 1952 and its badge (Figure 6) contained a lightning bolt, signifying communications; and crossed key standing for secrecy, authority, and guardianship. This Branch was subsequently combined with Army Intelligence in 1962 to form the Army Intelligence and Security Branch mentioned above."










This one is from the US Signal Corp...

[Jim McDougall]

On the lighter side, we cannot forget this icon of American symbolism which is 'reddily' remembered by most of us old timers.

[Jim McDougall]

As previously noted, this is the British 'style' hilt (termed 'Gothic') which was produced in those years and through the 19th century with the Royal cypher of the monarch in the oval cartouche. There are early ones with George IV and William IV but mostly of course the cypher of Queen Victoria.

Using the same hilt style, often the cartouche was replaced with pertinent symbols, emblems etc for examples made for Ceylon, Nepal and others.
It is in this styling convention that I think this example was produced, however crudely, in some capacity in India.

Despite the clearly modern association with the thunderbolt figuratively with communications, radio etc. and the suggestion to German influence as with examples of the symbols shown.......clearly the triple lightning bolt symbol transcends national denominator (the US Signal corps). Therefore it seems most plausible this example was made in India, early 20th c. for some unit not necessarily military with these kinds of communications association.

[Jim McDougall]

Manish,
In your original post you noted this blade was in Montmorency cross section. The British in late 18th c. were particularly in favor of this type blade as well of course as French. In post #7 Lofty asked for better views of the blade, to which I agree as it would be most helpful. The sword overall in as discussed in Indian context as you have described, so the blade would be in accord with British blades circulating for some time in these regions.
The scabbard seems Ottoman as described and might have been added later, not necessarily of the original mounting of the sword.

thank you
Jim