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Old 22nd February 2021, 07:00 PM   #1
shayde78
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Default Poor condition Kindjal

I'd like to get your comments on the Kindjal pictured below. This was part of a lot that I recently won. The condition of the items is not great (you may have seen the 'soussan patah-like' tulwar and the kukri in earlier posts).

Anyway, here we have what I believe is best termed a Kindjal. Its condition suggests some legitimate age, but per feedback on the kurkri thread, poor storage conditions can make an item achieve the look of a relic in an accelerated timeline. The lack of adornment and the rivets appearing to have hand forged heads suggests something from the early 20th century, and something intended for use, rather than mere decoration. The wood is deteriorated - from age or poor storage conditions? Of course, I'm been victim to wishful thinking of late, so I am willing to concede this was made last spring, and aged quickly due to the pandemic, as I know I have!

Specs:
Overall length - 21.4"
Blade length - 16.5"
Blade width - 2 7/16" (just in front of hilt)
Blade thickness - 5mm (tang as visible between handle slabs)
Weight - 13.75 oz

As always, thank you for your comments.
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Old 23rd February 2021, 07:17 AM   #2
Sajen
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Hello Shayde,

I hope that you take my comment not harshly!
It's now the second item you post here that is in my humble opinion not a collectors item and only a rusted piece of iron and not worth to spend any work of conservation in it. You should spend your money for better remained items.

Regards,
Detlef
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Old 23rd February 2021, 08:10 AM   #3
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Hi Shayde,

In the job lot of items you got a fantastic, in my mind Sossun Pattah, you have up on another post.

So if the other items are corroded beyond normal collector value (like this Item) so be it.

I find I learn as much from relic items as much as good condition items
was there much else in the haul?

Regards,

Ken

Last edited by Kmaddock : 23rd February 2021 at 02:13 PM.
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Old 23rd February 2021, 09:45 AM   #4
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In the case that the sword was together with the two corroded items and the price was correct it was indeed no mistake!
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Old 23rd February 2021, 03:12 PM   #5
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I think your assessment of the early 20th-century is correct and are you sure that the handle is wood rather than horn?
Since the item is in poor condition, why not practice your restoration on it, where you can experiment with some techniques that you might not normally use?
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Old 23rd February 2021, 04:27 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
Hello Shayde,

I hope that you take my comment not harshly!
It's now the second item you post here that is in my humble opinion not a collectors item and only a rusted piece of iron and not worth to spend any work of conservation in it. You should spend your money for better remained items.

Regards,
Detlef



Detlef,

I always appreciate honest opinions and sharing of expertise. It is the reason I am a member of this site - not to have my hopes confirmed, but to learn more about the items I collect. Thank you for being kind in the delivery of your feedback, but no worries, I fully accept the condition of this and the kukri are indeed rough, to say the least.

-Rob
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Old 23rd February 2021, 04:40 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kmaddock
Hi Shayde,

In the job lot of items you got a fantastic, in my mind Sossun Pattah, you have up on another post.

So if the other items are corroded beyond normal collector value (like this Item) so be it.

I find I learn as much from relic items as much as good condition items
was there much else in the haul?

Regards,

Ken



Ken,
Thanks for weighing in. I agree - the sossun pattah was the item that interested me in the lot as a whole. Being that I got 6 items for less than I would have paid for that one sword, I'm OK if the rest are not "collector's condition". I try to take good care of the items in my collection, but if one (or several) come to me in rough shape, I don't mind too much. As you say, I can learn a lot from these more damaged items, especially as I may be afforded opportunity to see how hilts were mounted, and such details that would otherwise be hidden on items in better conditions that you would never dream of taking apart. Also, and I know this is a point of some contention, I don't mind patina that indicates age and use by the original culture from which the weapon originates.

As for additional items, there were two machetes (one I haven't identified yet, the other is a 1943 Collins - a big beefy thing). There was also a Barong, that I haven't gotten around to formatting the pictures to post on here. That is in the best condition of the lot, and has a description carved into the sheath that suggests a GI bring-back item. Still, it has friction tape around the grip down by the blade where a wire wrap would traditionally have been. Might not be worth posting here as there are countless other examples already populating these pages.
-Rob
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Old 23rd February 2021, 04:41 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drac2k
I think your assessment of the early 20th-century is correct and are you sure that the handle is wood rather than horn?
Since the item is in poor condition, why not practice your restoration on it, where you can experiment with some techniques that you might not normally use?


Thanks for the question - I do think the hilt is wood due to the grain and the way it is flaking. I suppose I could do a hot pin test and smell the results.
Any thoughts on what kind of restoration you'd envision. Maye just a polish and replacing the grip?
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Old 23rd February 2021, 05:19 PM   #9
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Hello Rob,

Another vote for deteriorated horn - looks quite similar as the kukri to me.

I'd also suggest that such pieces offer opportunities like extensive repolishing projects; never throw any bits and pieces away, of course. And I also agree that any genuine and old piece is collectable as it is a still extant material link to a usually past culture even if the monetary value may be approaching zero.

And, mind you, there never can be too many barungs - keep them coming!

Regards,
Kai
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Old 23rd February 2021, 05:28 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kai
And, mind you, there never can be too many barungs - keep them coming!


Agree!
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Old 23rd February 2021, 05:54 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shayde78
Any thoughts on what kind of restoration you'd envision. Maye just a polish and replacing the grip?


Hello Rob,

There was once a kindjal restoration by Youtube online but I don't find it anymore but here is a restoration of a similar dagger: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qj_DrAtWOiA
When you use horn for the handle this could be a way of restoration.

Regards,
Detlef
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Old 24th February 2021, 01:22 PM   #12
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Hello Shayde78,
Sajen had an interesting video on restoring a blade, however, I think yours has greater pitting and you may not have a stationary belt sander.
I would also first use a wire brush on your item, then use an orbital sander on the blade, starting with 200 grit, then, 300, then 400. Clean your blade with some type of abrasive paste polish and assess your item. With the corrosion still evident in the pitting, take a spent brass bullet casing, crush it flat and scrape out the rust to your satisfaction(the brass will not mark the metal as it is softer than the blade), clean again with your polish.
When you are satisfied, now you must hand sand in a manner as they showed; use 600 grit, then 800 grit, then 1000 grit, and so on until you are happy, polish and wax.
In regards to the handle, I would carefully remove the iron bolsters and save them, make a cardboard template of the handles and transpose them to solid wood, and then shape them accordingly.
PLEASE DO NOT USE THESE METHODS ON YOUR VERY FINE INDIAN SWORD; I AM ONLY SUGGESTING THAT YOU DO THIS ON THIS ONE SWORD THAT IS IN POOR CONDITION.
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Old 24th February 2021, 01:29 PM   #13
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I have made handles from horn and it worked out great

In our local pet food there are all sort if things for Dog chews and one is Bufallo horn !
I never taught I would be purchasing items for antique knife restoration in a pet shop but as you know in this hobby you never know what travels you are going to have to make!

Hope you enjoy the project,

Ken
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Old 24th February 2021, 04:42 PM   #14
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Hello Detlef,

Quote:
There was once a kindjal restoration by Youtube online but I don't find it anymore but here is a restoration of a similar dagger: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qj_DrAtWOiA


I may be an old fart, but I am really weary of power tools being utilized for such restoration attempts. Chances are very close to nill that you'll be able to keep the original temper of any traditional blade (we're not talking about specialized modern tool steel here), especially along the edge! There is a reason why continuously water-cooled grinding equipment was utilized in factory-like settings during the good ol' days...

For a real learning experience I'd stick with manual tools.

Considering that the whole blade surface will have to be repolished, one might want to start with electrolytic rust removal for a thorough initial cleaning. If the pitting happens to be really deep, it might not be feasible to polish all the pitting out (unless you aim at a miniature kindjal); remaining holes may be filled with epoxy or hard wax.


Quote:
When you use horn for the handle this could be a way of restoration.

Sounds like I'm not the only one who believes these "hilt scales" to be downright ugly!

Regards,
Kai
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Old 24th February 2021, 05:52 PM   #15
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Thank you all for the feedback and guidance on restoration techniques. I do think this could be a fun project to undertake once I move. I currently live in a condo and have no proper workspace for such tasks. My hope is to have a garage, at the very least, with a true workbench. Maybe by the summer.

To address some of the points made - I will definitely stick to hand tools. Unlike in the video, I will not be applying a torch to any of it, knowing how that too will ruin the temper. Also, I will not be snipping the rivets off. They are old and have a rustic appeal I would want to retain in the restored result. So, I will have to try to gently remove them once the handle scales are removed, or find a way to build scales around them. Also, I already have buffalo horn from the pet store! I saw it sold there a year ago and picked it up thinking it would prove useful for something. I had hopes of trying to make a powderhorn, but this will be perfect!

Also, I am familiar with some of the discussions on electrolytic cleansing from the Keris forum. I looked into it a few weeks ago (for a blade I presented there), and it seems to be a well regarded technique for cleaning old tools and iron cookware. This may be just the item on which to try it out. The blade itself remains solid despite the surface pitting, so I think I could achieve decent results. I may try with some old files from the flea market first, and see how it goes.

Thanks again, all. I will share the results here later in the year, if I get around to tackling this project

Oh, and I may be the ONLY one who doesn't think these current hilt scales are ugly. They are in rough shape, but I have given some thought to finding out how to stabilize the scales and leave them on as a testament to whatever life this kindjal has lived. I don't know - the curiosity about trying a full restoration may win out, but I don't begrudge this for having rough aesthetics.
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Old 24th February 2021, 06:53 PM   #16
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Hello Rob,

I was referring to the hilt scales shown in the youtube video!

It might be possible to stabilize the horn scales with epoxy and applying pressure; not sure if this will prove stable for longer periods though.

Regards,
Kai
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Old 24th February 2021, 07:05 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kai
Hello Rob,

I was referring to the hilt scales shown in the youtube video!

It might be possible to stabilize the horn scales with epoxy and applying pressure; not sure if this will prove stable for longer periods though.

Regards,
Kai


Ah - got it! Yeah, I wasn't too impressed by how those turned out in the video. I appreciated the creative approach, but...
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