Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Keris Warung Kopi
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 20th November 2019, 10:31 AM   #31
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,748
Default

Thank you very much Amuk, I now understand perfectly, a quick phone call did it for me.

Basa Jero in Basa Sunda can be understood as extremely refined language that will only be understood by a select group of people, a little bit like university undergraduates, or perhaps some members of the British upper class, who use unknown and archaic language forms to impress their fellows.

The other way it can be understood is as a refined jargon, again only comprehensible to members of the group who use that jargon.

The above is pretty much word for word how Basa Jero Sunda was just explained to me, and from what you have just told us about the reason for being of Basa Sunda Jero, then the explanation I have just been given seems to be pretty accurate, in essence it is an archaic jargon that was at one time used by officialdom.

In English "Basa Sunda Jero" can be understood as "Inside Language", in the sense of a select language not meant to be understood by everybody, as I was told, a jargon the purpose of which was to keep secret those things that outsiders should not know.

In fact, it cannot be compared to either Kromo Inggil or Kromo Madyo, which are distinct hierarchical forms of Formal Modern Javanese.

Thank you very much, I really do value knowing this, because over a very long time I have spent a very great deal of time researching some of things you have written, at times I have felt that I was getting close to solving the mystery, when I would discover a word you used in Classical Malay, or in Bahasa Madura, but these were false leads, they never went anywhere.

Now I believe I understand perfectly why these leads were all dead ends.

Again I offer you my most sincere thanks.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th March 2020, 12:20 AM   #32
Amuk Murugul
Member
 
Amuk Murugul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: rampés agama, haat héman na djanma, kandel koelit, dipadjarkeun ménak koe na rama
Posts: 397
Default Another one to view/share

Hullo everybody!

Another doehoeng just to share with anyone interested.
Enjoy!

Name: Sang Poetjoek Oemoen
Desc: Sampana Leres 9Eloek GALOEHPANGAOEBAN
Char: Koekoedoeng , djalwan , pentil , ladjer.
Blade: LxOALxWxT=36.5x43.5x8.96x1.18cm.
Handle: Filigreed white-metal w/ red-stones Pralamba Boeta Para Doeka
Wt: 163g.
Sheath: Wood Djoeng Golekan w/ embossed soeasa o/sheath

Apologies should the photo not be correct on your screen.

Best
Attached Images
 
Amuk Murugul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th March 2020, 07:51 AM   #33
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,543
Default

Hello Amuk,
Thank you for the pic of this interesting piece again! Some comments or questions please:
. The blade looks much older that the hilt and scabbard. This type of hilt is apparently made in Lombok, or perhaps Bali or Sumbawa?
. This style of pendok overlapping on the atasan is fequently seen these days but is it an original design?
. Koekoedoeng = Kembang kacang, djalwan = jalen, pentil = pejetan, and ladjer = greneng
Regards
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th March 2020, 01:30 PM   #34
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,543
Default

Hello Amuk,
A similar hilt to yours fitted on a new kris from Sumbawa (courtesy of PdV).
Regards
Attached Images
 
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st April 2020, 03:23 PM   #35
JBG163
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: France
Posts: 73
Default

Amuk, i can't pm you sadly ? Can you send me an email please ? Thanks
JBG163 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st April 2020, 10:28 PM   #36
jagabuwana
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 135
Default

Quote:
Comments: Taroem(=indigo) is traditionally identified with Soenda, hence the band.


Kang Amuk, I am interested to learn more about the association between tarum and Sunda. Do you have any resources, or perhaps you can share more yourself?
jagabuwana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2020, 12:25 AM   #37
Amuk Murugul
Member
 
Amuk Murugul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: rampés agama, haat héman na djanma, kandel koelit, dipadjarkeun ménak koe na rama
Posts: 397
Default

Hullo Alan,

"In English "Basa Sunda Jero" can be understood as "Inside Language", in the sense of a select language not meant to be understood by everybody, as I was told, a jargon the purpose of which was to keep secret those things that outsiders should not know.

In fact, it cannot be compared to either Kromo Inggil or Kromo Madyo, which are distinct hierarchical forms of Formal Modern Javanese."


To be more specific, it is the equivalent of Djawa Bagongan.


Hullo Jean,

". The blade looks much older that the hilt and scabbard. This type of hilt is apparently made in Lombok, or perhaps Bali or Sumbawa?"

The blade is the ‘heart’, so ‘dress’ is not important and may see many changes throughout the blade’s life.
The hilt COULD have been made in the lesser Soenda islands.
The main difference between your example and mine: yours appears to be more stereotypical Bugis, with a hair-clasp/bledegan and greater proportion forward-leaning.

". This style of pendok overlapping on the atasan is fequently seen these days but is it an original design?"

I may be wrong, but I don’t think that I have ever seen one from outside western Java. It was designed for practicality. It goes back to at least the 19thC.

". Koekoedoeng = Kembang kacang, djalwan = jalen, pentil = pejetan, and ladjer = greneng"

Koekoedoeng = carina~ toelale, djalwan=stamen~ djalen, pentil = fruitset~ lambej, ladjer= prop~ gandi.

Hullo jagabuwana,

Back in the day, Soenda were known for their indigo dye, Djawa for their red dye, so fabric were sent to different areas to get dyed the right colours.
Back to your question:
CiTAROEM river.
TAROEManagara kingdom.

As has often been pointed out in this forum:
To understand a product, one has to understand the language, the culture and the history of the people who produced it.

Best,
Amuk Murugul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th December 2020, 11:13 PM   #38
jagabuwana
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 135
Default

Nuhun, Amuk Murugul. I do agree that to understand something, the language must also be understood. So I'm inclined to go further.

The reason I asked the question about the connection between Sunda and tarum (indigo) is because it is often taken to be self-evident that Sunda culture and lands have long been associated with tarum. As you mention, the river Citarum and the 5th century kingdom of Tarumanagara bear this name, and tarum means indigo in Sundanese today and likely also meant indigo in the local language in the time of Purnawarman

However I've personally only seen fairly modern sources that use the indigo colour to symbolise something Sundanese (let's say 18th century onwards) - and I seem to have trouble locating any sources that indicate the plant, dye or colour being of any symbolic relevance or even as a commodity of note. I am well aware too that we are talking about knowledges and facts pertaining to a Nusantara culture here and so historicity gives way to changing narrative and folkloric belief. Folklore, the passage of time as well as the obvious the meaning of "tarum" has perhaps lent weight to the symbolism of indigo and its connection to Sunda. But historicity in this case provides a richer understanding of the history and etymology behind the tarum in Tarumanagara or Citarum.

For this, Robert Wessing's (2011) Tarumanagara: What's in a name? (Journal of South East Asian Studies, 42:2, pp.325-327) provides a very well argued alternative for the origins of "tarum. Here are some interesting points:

-- There is no evidence to suggest that indigo as a commodity was particularly noteworthy by either Tarumanagara or to the places they exported their commodities to.

-- Tarum is not a word that exists in Sanskrit, but it probably corresponds to the tamil tarumam, which is dharma in Sanskrit. Tarumanagara then likely means something more like The State of Dharma, or Dharma Country. Wessing supports this argument through explaining that Purnawarman's court and city may have been deliberately built to be flanked by canals which were named Candrabagha and Gomati, which are sacred rivers on the Indian subcontinent.

-- Just as Candrabagha and Gomati were the names of existing rivers on the subcontinent, so too is the name "Tarum" in South India (e.g. Tarumapuram, Tarumaputtiran, Tarumaraja). It was likely that the Taruma inclusion was brought over by Tamil Hindu migrants who occupied positions of influence in Tarumanagara.

-- The understanding that the inclusion of the word tarum in Citarum or Tarumanagara originated from the word for indigo is coincidental. The word probably did mean indigo in the local language in 5th century. Indigo was known to grow freely on the banks of the Citarum, and so the double-meaning was accepted and applied.
jagabuwana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st December 2020, 03:13 AM   #39
Amuk Murugul
Member
 
Amuk Murugul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: rampés agama, haat héman na djanma, kandel koelit, dipadjarkeun ménak koe na rama
Posts: 397
Default

Hullo jagabuwana,

You asked and I answered. As is usually the case, what I provide is as is, to be taken or dismissed. I don’t engage in debate, I find it too taxing and time-consuming and am rather academically-challenged. I have confidence in my info, until I am provided with incontrovertible evidence to the contrary, in which case I will adjust accordingly.
To me, it ultimately boils down to a question of confidence/faith.

Best,
Amuk Murugul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st December 2020, 03:46 AM   #40
jagabuwana
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 135
Default

I didn't intend to debate or disprove you, but to add more information and perspective that I found interesting and satisfying, with the hope that others might too.
jagabuwana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st December 2020, 04:38 PM   #41
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 6,256
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul
Hullo jagabuwana,
You asked and I answered. As is usually the case, what I provide is as is, to be taken or dismissed. I don’t engage in debate, I find it too taxing and time-consuming and am rather academically-challenged. I have confidence in my info, until I am provided with incontrovertible evidence to the contrary, in which case I will adjust accordingly.
To me, it ultimately boils down to a question of confidence/faith.

Just a suggestion that you try approaching questions not as arguments or lead-ins to debate, but rather as discussion points. We are, after all, a discussion group. We all learn through conversation and sharing of ideas.
I as well consider myself to be a somewhat academically challenged collector. I hold no degrees in Javanese anthropology or any related fields. This is not to say that the academics are always correct, but it seems odd to so quickly dismiss them in favour of faith when there may, in fact, be new things we can learn from them.
Just for the fun of it, a list of academic papers pertaining to Javanese culture from Robert Wessing.
https://independent.academia.edu/RobertWessing
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st December 2020, 06:58 PM   #42
Amuk Murugul
Member
 
Amuk Murugul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: rampés agama, haat héman na djanma, kandel koelit, dipadjarkeun ménak koe na rama
Posts: 397
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jagabuwana
I didn't intend to debate or disprove you, but to add more information and perspective that I found interesting and satisfying, with the hope that others might too.

Hullo jagabuwana,

It appears that I may have been too abrupt and thus been misunderstood.
For that I sincerely apologise. I was merely reiterating what I've often said in this room. No offence was taken. After all, the device on the side-panel states: 'kandel koelit'.
Of course I totally agree with what you stated. I'll happily listen-in at what transpires. I am here to learn.

All the best for the new year!
Amuk Murugul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st December 2020, 07:41 PM   #43
Amuk Murugul
Member
 
Amuk Murugul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: rampés agama, haat héman na djanma, kandel koelit, dipadjarkeun ménak koe na rama
Posts: 397
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Just a suggestion that you try approaching questions not as arguments or lead-ins to debate, but rather as discussion points. We are, after all, a discussion group. We all learn through conversation and sharing of ideas.
I as well consider myself to be a somewhat academically challenged collector. I hold no degrees in Javanese anthropology or any related fields. This is not to say that the academics are always correct, but it seems odd to so quickly dismiss them in favour of faith when there may, in fact, be new things we can learn from them.
Just for the fun of it, a list of academic papers pertaining to Javanese culture from Robert Wessing.
https://independent.academia.edu/RobertWessing

Hullo David,

Firstly, I generally agree with what you have stated.
However:"This is not to say that the academics are always correct, but it seems odd to so quickly dismiss them in favour of faith when there may, in fact, be new things we can learn from them."
If this is taken to apply to me, then I believe that you have misunderstood me.
By 'faith', I mean it in the generic sense.
In decades of research, I have always tried to trace data to their original source. I have found that some authors tend to have faith in their references and accept them as gospel, not checking their veracity; thus propagating any errors which occurred up the line.
So, no, I don't dismiss them. I merely check their veracity.
That's why I have confidence in my results.
I only contribute to a conversation (banter aside) if I think that it may have value, otherwise I am quite happy to sit back, watch and learn.
As an example of what I meant with faith as a bottom line:
People had 'faith' in this particular Nobel Prize scientist, until in a subsequent project, it was found that the scientist had 'manipulated'/'extrapolated' the results.
Similarly when I mention 'agama'. People immediately think 'religion'. My definition of agama: darmasiksa; traditional/holy/teaching doctrine(s).

I apologise for the rant, but I thought some clarification was needed.

All the best for the coming year!
Amuk Murugul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st December 2020, 09:57 PM   #44
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,748
Default

As a fully qualified and dedicated cynic I have very few heros, but Sam Arbesman is one of them. In my shortlist, he is probably #1.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st January 2021, 08:56 PM   #45
Amuk Murugul
Member
 
Amuk Murugul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: rampés agama, haat héman na djanma, kandel koelit, dipadjarkeun ménak koe na rama
Posts: 397
Default Sarangka Soenda (Soenda Sheaths)

Hullo everybody!

Doing some 'house-cleaning'. Thought somebody may appreciate these background pictures before I erase them.
My apologies should they not show up too well on your screen. At least the 'info' is there.

Best,
Attached Images
  
Amuk Murugul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st February 2021, 08:19 AM   #46
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,543
Default

Thank you very much Amuk, I noticed such a peculiar scabbard in the book "The Kris" by Edward Frey, third edition, page 57, and I wondered about its origin, so is it from West Java? The hilt is reminiscent of the Ganesha hilts from Cirebon but with some differences.
Regards
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st February 2021, 11:01 AM   #47
Amuk Murugul
Member
 
Amuk Murugul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: rampés agama, haat héman na djanma, kandel koelit, dipadjarkeun ménak koe na rama
Posts: 397
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean
Thank you very much Amuk, I noticed such a peculiar scabbard in the book "The Kris" by Edward Frey, third edition, page 57, and I wondered about its origin, so is it from West Java? The hilt is reminiscent of the Ganesha hilts from Cirebon but with some differences.
Regards

Hullo Jean,
I am sorry to say that I am poverty-stricken wrt bibliography; so I pretty much have to rely on 'fieldwork'. In other words, I have not had access to the book you mention.
As I have previously mentioned in this forum somewhere, the motif on the scabbards represent tree-ferns (Cyathea, bot.). They symbolise the Soenda; 'the highlanders'. So the area covered is western Java (incl. part of Central Java).
The hilt is a stylised vegetal form of Ganesja= Gana Isja= lord of the Ganas, attendants of Siwa.

Best,
Amuk Murugul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st February 2021, 03:02 PM   #48
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 6,256
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul
Hullo everybody!

Doing some 'house-cleaning'. Thought somebody may appreciate these background pictures before I erase them.
My apologies should they not show up too well on your screen. At least the 'info' is there.

Best,

Thanks for showing us photos of this rare dress form before eliminating them from your date base. A lovely example. I trust you still have this beautiful keris in your custody?
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st February 2021, 07:34 PM   #49
Amuk Murugul
Member
 
Amuk Murugul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: rampés agama, haat héman na djanma, kandel koelit, dipadjarkeun ménak koe na rama
Posts: 397
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Thanks for showing us photos of this rare dress form before eliminating them from your date base. A lovely example. I trust you still have this beautiful keris in your custody?

Hullo David,

I have been rationalising all my traditional/heritage material due to reason of practicality. Whatever is no longer in my ‘core’ collection has been passed on to other koentjen (=pakoentjian=key-keepers, akin to the custodians of story-/song-lines in Australia) for safe-custody. So I still have access to everything. No doubt even the core collection will be passed on, eventually.

Best,
Amuk Murugul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd February 2021, 05:12 AM   #50
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 7,256
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean
Thank you very much Amuk, I noticed such a peculiar scabbard in the book "The Kris" by Edward Frey, third edition, page 57, ...


When it is not the same keris we see here!
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd February 2021, 12:32 PM   #51
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,543
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul
Hullo David,

I have been rationalising all my traditional/heritage material due to reason of practicality. Whatever is no longer in my ‘core’ collection has been passed on to other koentjen (=pakoentjian=key-keepers, akin to the custodians of story-/song-lines in Australia) for safe-custody. So I still have access to everything. No doubt even the core collection will be passed on, eventually.

Best,

Hello Amuk,
I (and probably many other Forum members) would love that you publish a book or a pictures catalog of your rare items!
Regards
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd February 2021, 12:35 PM   #52
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,543
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
When it is not the same keris we see here!


Hello Sajen,
Of course the blades are very different but the scabbard and hilt are similar. I can post a pic if required but the original one is very small.
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd February 2021, 01:31 PM   #53
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 7,256
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean
Hello Sajen,
Of course the blades are very different but the scabbard and hilt are similar. I can post a pic if required but the original one is very small.


Hello Jean,

The blade from the first one in Amuks picture we can't see! So it could be very well the same one, who knows.

Regards,
Detlef
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd February 2021, 09:40 PM   #54
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 6,256
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul
Whatever is no longer in my ‘core’ collection has been passed on to other koentjen (=pakoentjian=key-keepers, akin to the custodians of story-/song-lines in Australia) for safe-custody. So I still have access to everything. No doubt even the core collection will be passed on, eventually.

Good to know. The sheathed one, as has been noted, looks exactly like the example shown in Frey's book. So close that it does indeed seem to be the same keris.
Anyway, thanks for posting these unusual examples.

Last edited by David : 2nd February 2021 at 09:56 PM.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd February 2021, 04:37 AM   #55
Interested Party
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Eastern Sierra
Posts: 119
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
Hello Jean,

The blade from the first one in Amuks picture we can't see! So it could be very well the same one, who knows.

Regards,
Detlef

No definitely different. The fronds as they radiate out of the center of the wranka are 90 degrees different. The mendaks are not the same as well. But apparently there is a style that is very closely adhered to.

Thank you AM for posting all that you do. I look forward to them. I would love for any information you want to share to get out into the world as well.
Interested Party is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd February 2021, 06:08 AM   #56
Sajen
Member
 
Sajen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Germany, Dortmund
Posts: 7,256
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Interested Party
No definitely different. The fronds as they radiate out of the center of the wranka are 90 degrees different. The mendaks are not the same as well. But apparently there is a style that is very closely adhered to.


Yes, you are correct. The picture by Fry is very small, after looking again with better light and a magnifying glass I see the differences. Also the fronds in front of the gandar go down instead of up. I have not the best eyes anymore.

Regards,
Detlef
Sajen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd February 2021, 08:39 AM   #57
Jean
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,543
Default

I attach the pic of the kris from Frey for reference and avoiding confusion in some posts....
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Jean : 3rd February 2021 at 05:30 PM.
Jean is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 04:12 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.