16th/17th century chain shot

Matchlock · 25th February 2009, 08:18 PM

Thanks a lot, Fernando, that praise of yours does me so good.

I got the German version.

Michael

M ELEY · 28th February 2009, 02:30 AM

Jim,
thanks for replying and seconding the theory of a lower powder charge for the chainshot to achieve its goal. It seems to make sense that it was used this way. Either way, it was a horrible projectile if you got in its way. One of the English admirals was cut in half by a french chainshot during one of their many naval battles back in the 17th century.

Michael,
Thank you so much for posting these amazing pics. Although I'm not much into munitions, I've always been fascinated in these 'specialty' shots for taking out rigging (and personnel). I've seen sketches of the above shot, but never the real pics. Fernando is right. I've got to ge me a copy of that Dudley Pope book! Thanks again!
-Mark

Jim McDougall · 28th February 2009, 04:02 AM

Thanks Mark,
It has always seemed so interesting to me that there could be such force in low velocity dynamics concerning ballistics. To think that a projectile moving at a speed where it could easily be seen could have the ability to inflict such gruesome effect.
In combat between ships it seems that just before boarding, a volley was often fired to create confusion on deck, so lesser charge would be needed with the vessels closing. This shot would bring down rigging etc. to add to the confusion. ....at least thats what my pirate manual says

but then them's just guidelines, right?

All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 28th February 2009, 08:29 AM

'Pirate manual', aye? I always knew you were a true scalawag, Jim!

I was wondering if anyone with knowlegde of munitions has any concrete stories or historical references to portable coehorn cannons being taken to sea. In Gilkerson's 'Borders Away II', he seems to discourage the idea that a short-range portable mortar that fired an anti-personnel shell that dispersed grapeshot had much use in naval battles. Yet, many books mention coehorns and mention their use. True, it might have been a limited bombardment with two ships near each other and one basically lobbing shells onto the others' deck. Let's face it, the whole purpose of the 'fighting tops' was to kill as many of the enemy sailors on their decks as bullets would allow. Likewise, thrown grenadoes had the same effect. So why not a coehorn shell? Gilkerson says (I'm quoting from memory, so I might be wrong) that the fire produced from the blast could have set fire to the rigging, but this explanation seems weak, considering the use of swival guns, which also produced flame. Perhaps it was the unpredictability of the scattering of grape? With the swivals and cannon, the shot would have been directed directly at the enemy ship, whereas the lobbed coehorn shell came down and exploded, sending projectiles in every direction. Thoughts, anyone?

Matchlock · 27th February 2012, 04:34 PM

For more on grape shot and canister shot, please see my thread

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...d=1#post134755

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 6th March 2012, 05:01 PM

Labeled as 18th/19th c., from the George F. Harding collection.

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 9th March 2012, 04:57 PM

Another.

m

fernando · 9th March 2012, 05:05 PM

Fascinating little specimen ... and in Technicolor

Matchlock · 25th April 2012, 03:02 PM

For more on quilted shot, please see

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...225#post138225

Matchlock · 27th April 2012, 08:48 PM

Canister grape shot of 1812:

http://images.ourontario.ca/niagaraf...ums/71962/data

m

fernando · 16th September 2013, 06:14 PM

Chain shot (and not only) pictured last week in the Navy Museum, situated in Torre Del Oro, Seville, Spain.
I looks like the black finishing is original.

.

broadaxe · 16th September 2013, 09:54 PM

What do you think about this item here: http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=5683

Personally, I think it is much too elaborated to be ammunition, and not too heavy to be thrown by hand.

fernando · 28th February 2009, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

... I've seen sketches of the above shot, but never the real pics...

I've seen at least a real one in 'person', in the Oporto Military museum; just don't know how old it was

.
Fernando

.

M ELEY · 2nd March 2009, 04:10 AM

Bump. Anyone comments on coehorns at sea?

More shot...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Di...balls_Vasa.jpg

Matchlock · 4th March 2009, 05:30 PM

PRO E36/13, pp.55-62: Inventory of the Mary Rose, 27 July 1514

Ordnance, artillery & habillaments (implements) of war left in the said ship in the charge and custody of John Browne master, & John Bryarley purser, of the same, by indenture as is aforesaid, that is to say - (margin)

Great curtows of brass 5
Murderers of brass 2
Chambers to the same 3
Falcons of brass 2
Falconets of brass 3
Great murderers of iron 1
Chambers to the same 1
Murderers of iron of another sort 2
Chambers to the same 4
Cast pieces of iron 2
Chambers to the same 4
Murderers of iron of another sort 1
Chambers to the same 2
Slings of iron called demi-slings 2
Chambers to the same 4
Stone-guns 26
Top-guns 3
Chambers to the same 75
Serpentines of iron 28
Chambers to the same 107
Forelocks for stone-guns, top-guns and serpentines 94
Myches (swivels) to the same 80
Stone shot, great and small 500
A little gun of brass without (a) chamber 1
Hammers for guns 13
Picks for stone 22
Heads for arrows of wildfire 8
Hocks for arrows of wildfire 29
Strings 600
Bags of leather 9
Parchment skins 20
Lead - 2.25 sows and certain cast (lead) Charging ladles of copper 2
Ladles of iron for casting pellets 2
Bolts of iron 17

Bows 20
Arrows 20
Bills (pole weapons) 20

Artillery and habillaments of war delivered to John Millet & Thomas Elderton by bill signed by with the hands of the foresaid commissioners, that is to say - (margin)

Hacbusshes (muskets) 91
Iron shot of divers sorts 457
Iron shot with cross-bars 120
Lead pellets, great and small 1000
Pellets for hacbusshes 900
Iron dice (for shot) 1500
Arrows of wildfire (incendiaries) 74
Balls of wildfire 2
Salets (helmets) 180
Breast(-plates) 206
Gorgets (armoured neck pieces) 146
Splints (leg armour) 172 pairs
Gun-powder 21.5 barrels
Gun-powder cartridges 1 chest-full
Charging-ladles for falcons and curtows 7
Sponges to the same 6
Stamps 3
Iron crow(-bars) 14
Bows of yew 123
Chests to the same 2
Arrows 504 sheaves
Chests to the same 11
Bills 218
Stakes for the field (pointed wooden stakes) 149
Morris pikes 159

From

http://www.maryrose.org/project/index.html

Michael

Matchlock · 4th March 2009, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Bump. Anyone comments on coehorns at sea?

More shot...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Di...balls_Vasa.jpg

Thanks a lot for that important link, Mark!

I hope you do not object to my posting that image of various shot found on the Vasa, which sank in 1628.

Thanks again,
Michael

Matchlock · 4th March 2009, 06:25 PM

Mark,

Here is a link to some very cheap copies of Dudley Pope's Guns at abebooks.com:

http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/p/...-pope/guns.htm

Michael

M ELEY · 5th March 2009, 09:22 AM

Michael,
Thank you so much for the link to the Dudley Pope book. Just purchased a copy. Thanks, also, for the extensive ordenance listing from the Mary Rose. I am frankly surprised at some of the items on that list being ordenance and not merchandise being shipped. In the later years of "Fighting Sail", with the exception of cutlass, muskets, pike, axes and of course, cannon and shot, there was little else carried for battle. In this early listing, we see breastplates, slings, arrows, and even those implements needed to make more shot, etc. Very interesting.
Yes, the Vasa is incredible and I hope to someday see it in person in my lifetime. Amazing to see a ship raised as it was in such perfect condition. Very glad you posting more pics of this important vessel.
Mark

6th March 2012, 05:01 PM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Grape Shot in The Art Institute of Chicago Labeled as 18th/19th c., from the George F. Harding collection. Best, Michael Attached Images

9th March 2012, 04:57 PM	#7
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Another. m Attached Images

27th April 2012, 08:48 PM	#10
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Canister grape shot of 1812: http://images.ourontario.ca/niagaraf...ums/71962/data m Attached Images

16th September 2013, 06:14 PM	#11
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,651	Chain shot (and not only) pictured last week in the Navy Museum, situated in Torre Del Oro, Seville, Spain. I looks like the black finishing is original. . Attached Images

4th March 2009, 05:30 PM	#15
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Bar Shot in the 1514 Mary Rose Armament Inventory PRO E36/13, pp.55-62: Inventory of the Mary Rose, 27 July 1514 Ordnance, artillery & habillaments (implements) of war left in the said ship in the charge and custody of John Browne master, & John Bryarley purser, of the same, by indenture as is aforesaid, that is to say - (margin) Great curtows of brass 5 Murderers of brass 2 Chambers to the same 3 Falcons of brass 2 Falconets of brass 3 Great murderers of iron 1 Chambers to the same 1 Murderers of iron of another sort 2 Chambers to the same 4 Cast pieces of iron 2 Chambers to the same 4 Murderers of iron of another sort 1 Chambers to the same 2 Slings of iron called demi-slings 2 Chambers to the same 4 Stone-guns 26 Top-guns 3 Chambers to the same 75 Serpentines of iron 28 Chambers to the same 107 Forelocks for stone-guns, top-guns and serpentines 94 Myches (swivels) to the same 80 Stone shot, great and small 500 A little gun of brass without (a) chamber 1 Hammers for guns 13 Picks for stone 22 Heads for arrows of wildfire 8 Hocks for arrows of wildfire 29 Strings 600 Bags of leather 9 Parchment skins 20 Lead - 2.25 sows and certain cast (lead) Charging ladles of copper 2 Ladles of iron for casting pellets 2 Bolts of iron 17 Bows 20 Arrows 20 Bills (pole weapons) 20 Artillery and habillaments of war delivered to John Millet & Thomas Elderton by bill signed by with the hands of the foresaid commissioners, that is to say - (margin) Hacbusshes (muskets) 91 Iron shot of divers sorts 457 Iron shot with cross-bars 120 Lead pellets, great and small 1000 Pellets for hacbusshes 900 Iron dice (for shot) 1500 Arrows of wildfire (incendiaries) 74 Balls of wildfire 2 Salets (helmets) 180 Breast(-plates) 206 Gorgets (armoured neck pieces) 146 Splints (leg armour) 172 pairs Gun-powder 21.5 barrels Gun-powder cartridges 1 chest-full Charging-ladles for falcons and curtows 7 Sponges to the same 6 Stamps 3 Iron crow(-bars) 14 Bows of yew 123 Chests to the same 2 Arrows 504 sheaves Chests to the same 11 Bills 218 Stakes for the field (pointed wooden stakes) 149 Morris pikes 159 From http://www.maryrose.org/project/index.html Michael

25th February 2009, 08:18 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Thanks a lot, Fernando, that praise of yours does me so good. I got the German version. Michael

28th February 2009, 02:30 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,076	Jim, thanks for replying and seconding the theory of a lower powder charge for the chainshot to achieve its goal. It seems to make sense that it was used this way. Either way, it was a horrible projectile if you got in its way. One of the English admirals was cut in half by a french chainshot during one of their many naval battles back in the 17th century. Michael, Thank you so much for posting these amazing pics. Although I'm not much into munitions, I've always been fascinated in these 'specialty' shots for taking out rigging (and personnel). I've seen sketches of the above shot, but never the real pics. Fernando is right. I've got to ge me a copy of that Dudley Pope book! Thanks again! -Mark

28th February 2009, 04:02 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Thanks Mark, It has always seemed so interesting to me that there could be such force in low velocity dynamics concerning ballistics. To think that a projectile moving at a speed where it could easily be seen could have the ability to inflict such gruesome effect. In combat between ships it seems that just before boarding, a volley was often fired to create confusion on deck, so lesser charge would be needed with the vessels closing. This shot would bring down rigging etc. to add to the confusion. ....at least thats what my pirate manual says but then them's just guidelines, right? All the best, Jim

28th February 2009, 08:29 AM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,076	'Pirate manual', aye? I always knew you were a true scalawag, Jim! I was wondering if anyone with knowlegde of munitions has any concrete stories or historical references to portable coehorn cannons being taken to sea. In Gilkerson's 'Borders Away II', he seems to discourage the idea that a short-range portable mortar that fired an anti-personnel shell that dispersed grapeshot had much use in naval battles. Yet, many books mention coehorns and mention their use. True, it might have been a limited bombardment with two ships near each other and one basically lobbing shells onto the others' deck. Let's face it, the whole purpose of the 'fighting tops' was to kill as many of the enemy sailors on their decks as bullets would allow. Likewise, thrown grenadoes had the same effect. So why not a coehorn shell? Gilkerson says (I'm quoting from memory, so I might be wrong) that the fire produced from the blast could have set fire to the rigging, but this explanation seems weak, considering the use of swival guns, which also produced flame. Perhaps it was the unpredictability of the scattering of grape? With the swivals and cannon, the shot would have been directed directly at the enemy ship, whereas the lobbed coehorn shell came down and exploded, sending projectiles in every direction. Thoughts, anyone?

27th February 2012, 04:34 PM	#5
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	For more on grape shot and canister shot, please see my thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...d=1#post134755 Best, Michael

9th March 2012, 05:05 PM	#8
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,651	Fascinating little specimen ... and in Technicolor

25th April 2012, 03:02 PM	#9
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	For more on quilted shot, please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...225#post138225

16th September 2013, 09:54 PM	#12
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 332	What do you think about this item here: http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=5683 Personally, I think it is much too elaborated to be ammunition, and not too heavy to be thrown by hand.

2nd March 2009, 04:10 AM	#14
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,076	Bump. Anyone comments on coehorns at sea? More shot... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Di...balls_Vasa.jpg

4th March 2009, 06:25 PM	#17
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Mark, Here is a link to some very cheap copies of Dudley Pope's Guns at abebooks.com: http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/p/...-pope/guns.htm Michael

5th March 2009, 09:22 AM	#18
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,076	Michael, Thank you so much for the link to the Dudley Pope book. Just purchased a copy. Thanks, also, for the extensive ordenance listing from the Mary Rose. I am frankly surprised at some of the items on that list being ordenance and not merchandise being shipped. In the later years of "Fighting Sail", with the exception of cutlass, muskets, pike, axes and of course, cannon and shot, there was little else carried for battle. In this early listing, we see breastplates, slings, arrows, and even those implements needed to make more shot, etc. Very interesting. Yes, the Vasa is incredible and I hope to someday see it in person in my lifetime. Amazing to see a ship raised as it was in such perfect condition. Very glad you posting more pics of this important vessel. Mark