Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Keris Warung Kopi
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 19th February 2020, 09:55 AM   #31
Mickey the Finn
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 26
Default Re: Angkup

@ rasdan :This is quite interesting, and enlightening. Outside and inside calipers. I adjusted a couple to more secure positions upon the wood screws on which they hung on the wall at work just this morning. My apologies for "thread necromancy" and, perhaps, irrelevant commentary. I was following a train of thought during the course of research, and it led me here.
Google Translator leads me to believe that "angkup randu" means something like "operator's manual for tweezers" or "hand-operated tweezers". Please don't feel obligated to reply. I'm sure the matter will sort itself out in time.
Mickey the Finn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th February 2020, 10:50 AM   #32
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,475
Default

Mickey, in Indonesian, Javanese, Old Javanese "randu" means kapok tree.

In Modern Malay, Indonesian "angkup" means tweezers, pliers.

In Modern Javanese "angkup randu" could be understood as "unopened bud of the kapok tree" > "angkup" in Javanese is an unopened bud.

I do not know what "randu" means in Modern Malay, but I have a very foggy memory that in Classical Malay it is verb that means some sort of arm action.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th February 2020, 05:55 PM   #33
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 6,025
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickey the Finn
Google Translator leads me to believe that "angkup randu" means something like "operator's manual for tweezers" or "hand-operated tweezers". Please don't feel obligated to reply. I'm sure the matter will sort itself out in time.

Well, i don't mean to keep this resurrected thread alive for long (though it is nice to see these tajong once again ), but i will just say that Google Translator knows jack about Malay based languages. You will find the most ridiculous translation or words and phrases almost every time. It is near useless for understanding Bahasa Indonesian, Javanese or Malay.
Carry on!
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th February 2020, 07:56 PM   #34
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,475
Default

I think most keris people would know this,its pretty basic knowledge, but maybe some of the new boys might not, so it is worth mentioning I guess.

There is a type of Solo mendak that is named "angkup randu" because it carries the angkup randu motif, which is pretty prevalent in Central Javanese ornamentation, and is also one of the common batik motifs.

This motif is a representation of the kapok tree bud.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th February 2020, 08:18 PM   #35
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,475
Default

The Malay meaning of "randu" was troubling me, so I looked it up in Wilkinson, published 1901, here is the dictionary entry:-

Randu. I. The action of the arm in stirring
up water or anything, when the arm is thrust
into water and worked round and round so as
to set the water in rapid motion. Randukan:
to work up or mix anything by working the
arm round and round in it; Sej, Mai., 122.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st March 2020, 11:05 AM   #36
Mickey the Finn
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 26
Default Re: Kapok, Google Translator, "angkup randu", et al.

I often take things for granted; the most recent pertinent instance may have been assuming that the majority of readers of this forum will automatically associate "angkup randu" with a specific design of mendak. I don't get out much, so I've never seen "angkup randu" used in any context except in reference to a mendak. Now that I think of it, this particular design I seem to recall as having been described by Mr. Maisey as something like "an ideal, single-use collapsible shock absorber" (words in quotation marks not a direct quote, but intended to convey my recollection of the meaning I think he intended at the time).
Kapok, I have read, is what the Imperial Japanese Naval and Army Air Services used as the filler in flotation vests/life jackets for their air crews. (I suspect it's been used for the same purpose more recently than that).
I think that I may go ahead and submit a post describing "My Initial Impressions of the General Atmosphere of the 'Keris Warung Kopi' and the Reason for the Delay Between My Registration and My First Post".
My experience with Google Translator has been more hit than miss. For Malay-English, I'd say it's worse than useless. Better to copy and paste any unknown Malay text and translate it as Sundanese, then Indonesian, then Javanese, and then you might have an idea of what it means. For English-Indonesian and the other way around: very, very good. Something like 98.28% of my Feisbuk friends are Indonesian, and none have ever voiced any suspicion that I'm Inggris bule, and not Indonesian. I straight up told one guy that I was using a translator to chat with him, and I had a hard time convincing him that I wasn't pulling his leg. Javanese-English is very hit-or-miss. A very big problem is G.T. doesn't have an understanding of different registers. And then there are terms like "Buta Nawasari/Naswari/Ngawasari"; I still don't know if it's Bengali or Hindi which I ought to translate from. Perhaps it's Balinized Bengali, and therein lies the problem. A while ago, some Balinese danganan name I tried to translate came up as something like "cousin does not know knee broken". The important thing is: for all translations, click the "reverse translation" feature to be sure it makes sense, and that words with more than one possible meaning are being translated into the meaning you intend. This can be tricky; sometimes you need to change the word order to correspond to the syntax of the target language. Sometimes the syntax of colloquial spoken English is incorrect syntax, which causes the translation to make no sense. Sometimes you'll need to use a synonym for the translation to come out right. Google Translator is my default tool to use for all the languages I need to translate from/to (Chinese, Japanese, French, German, Dutch, Swedish, Danish, Polish, Hungarian, Russian, Spanish, and Bahasa); only for Spanish do I sometimes need to use another as an adjunct.
Mickey the Finn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st March 2020, 04:01 PM   #37
David
Keris forum moderator
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Great Midwest
Posts: 6,025
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickey the Finn
My experience with Google Translator has been more hit than miss. For Malay-English, I'd say it's worse than useless. Better to copy and paste any unknown Malay text and translate it as Sundanese, then Indonesian, then Javanese, and then you might have an idea of what it means. For English-Indonesian and the other way around: very, very good. Something like 98.28% of my Feisbuk friends are Indonesian, and none have ever voiced any suspicion that I'm Inggris bule, and not Indonesian. I straight up told one guy that I was using a translator to chat with him, and I had a hard time convincing him that I wasn't pulling his leg. Javanese-English is very hit-or-miss. A very big problem is G.T. doesn't have an understanding of different registers. And then there are terms like "Buta Nawasari/Naswari/Ngawasari"; I still don't know if it's Bengali or Hindi which I ought to translate from. Perhaps it's Balinized Bengali, and therein lies the problem. A while ago, some Balinese danganan name I tried to translate came up as something like "cousin does not know knee broken". The important thing is: for all translations, click the "reverse translation" feature to be sure it makes sense, and that words with more than one possible meaning are being translated into the meaning you intend. This can be tricky; sometimes you need to change the word order to correspond to the syntax of the target language. Sometimes the syntax of colloquial spoken English is incorrect syntax, which causes the translation to make no sense. Sometimes you'll need to use a synonym for the translation to come out right. Google Translator is my default tool to use for all the languages I need to translate from/to (Chinese, Japanese, French, German, Dutch, Swedish, Danish, Polish, Hungarian, Russian, Spanish, and Bahasa); only for Spanish do I sometimes need to use another as an adjunct.

Well Mickey, i am glad you are having some luck with Google Translator through what sounds like an extremely excruciating and convoluted method of multiple transition translations. Though i suspect that your Indonesian friends are either being very polite to you or it is THEY who are pulling your leg. I can't imagine that any native Indonesian speaker could be fooled by a Google translation into believing they are speaking to another native speaker though such translations.
David is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st March 2020, 07:59 PM   #38
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,475
Default

Interesting post Mickey. I guess I just don't have the necessary skills to use Google Translator (GT) effectively, because I seldom get any sense out of it.

I actually had cause to use it last week, I had it translate a passage written in BI into English, the reason I did this was because a good friend who lives in Bali --- he's been there about 11 years --- had used Google translator (GT) for the entire text of a Lombok story translated from I don't know what into BI.

Even though my friend has lived in Bali a long time, his BI is pretty rudimentary, I think because he is constantly required to use English for his work, so he uses GT for longer pieces of writing. Anyway, I read the BI text and it was perfectly clear, then I pulled a couple of paragraphs that we had been discussing from the text and ran them through GT. The result I got was a mess, but knowing what it was about because I'd read the original I could understand the GT job.

So yeah, GT makes a mess of syntax, and screws a few other things up, but for a mechanical service, its probably not too bad.


In respect of mendak, my thoughts on the possible function of a mendak as a "shock absorber" applies to all mendak, not just the angkup randu motif. All mendak are lightly made and do collapse under pressure, not like a metuk which solid metal.


The name "Buta Nawa Sari" is Balinese. Buta = evil spirit, but in fact, not all buta are invariably evil; buta inhabit graveyards and forest areas.

The word "Nawa" is commonly understood as "nine", but its other common meaning is as an indefinite length indicator --- you say something is "nawa" and in context that indicates that the something is long, but how long depends upon context.

The word "Sari" is again subject to context, but in all contexts it indicates the "essence" of something. In the use as an attribute of Nawa Sari, that essence is the pandan flower. The problem with the name "Buta Nawa Sari" is two fold, firstly he may not originally have been a buta, secondly the word "nawa" does have at least one other meaning and that other meaning could well solve part of the riddle. Right now the "nawa" problem is being worked on.

One thing appears to be certain, and that is that Nawa Sari is indigenous Balinese.

Kapok is a common product in Jawa, it is used to fill mattresses and pillows.

EDIT Mickey, what you said about GT on English to BI translation seems as if it is correct, I just ran several tests on it, nothing deliberately constructed to confuse, just simple, straight forward statements and what GT produced was better than 90% OK.

Last edited by A. G. Maisey : 1st March 2020 at 08:10 PM.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st March 2020, 09:34 PM   #39
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,475
Default

So, I thought to myself:-

"what are some of usual misunderstandings that occur between native English speakers and native BI speakers?"


I told GT that:-

"I am English and that rujak is far too hot for me, and the gado-gado is no better"

and what GT translated that as was:-

"Saya orang Inggris dan rujak itu terlalu panas untuk saya, dan gado-gado tidak lebih baik"


which is acceptably OK, but not what anybody who speaks Indonesian would have either understood, or said --- particularly if the Englishman was sitting at the same table and drinking copious quantities of water with his eyes and nose running and his throat & belly on fire.

Of course, it is possible to lead GT down an incorrect path by pretending that it is a real live person, but no matter how much it might like to be, it cannot ever eat rujak or gado-gado.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd March 2020, 02:12 AM   #40
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 4,872
Default

Google Translate is a dangerous program to use. Mostly it provides pretty comprehensible translations of simple texts. But in ambiguous cases the final result comes out as something ranging from hysterically funny to totally insane. Often both.

On this Forum I have seen GTs of Russian texts, and one of my favorite ones is a translation of “shashka”, a Caucasian guardless saber. There is also an almost 100% identical homophonic word ”shashki”, which means “checkers”.
Almost always, a sentence” This shashka was made...” is translated as “ This checker was made...” Go figure:-)))
I can go on and on with it.
Caveat emptor!
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd March 2020, 07:27 AM   #41
Mickey the Finn
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 26
Default Re:Politeness; Google Translator; Buta Nawa Sari.

I've read on this forum that Indonesians can value being polite to the extent that it might even be considered a fault; this brings to mind the proverbial "insidious Chinaman", smiling and nodding to humour the poor, unfortunate gwai lo, who is clearly a feebleminded simpleton. Ignorance, it seems, is a bliss which the knowledgeable shall never enjoy.

David, as a Bible student,
Quote:
extremely excruciating and convoluted method[s] of multiple transition translations
are old hat to me; it's what I do.

ariel, the example you've provided to demonstrate the importance of checking the translation to ensure that it makes sense is appreciated. If only the people who wrote up the installation instructions for V.C.R.s back in the day had taken the time...

Mr. Maisey, I may have gone off the rails entirely here, and if I have, please let me know in unambiguous terms. After having transliterated the Roman letters "nawa" into Hindi Devanagari script through G.T, and then reverse translated, I got "Nava". Translating the same Devanagari script from Bengali to English, I got "New".
Transliteration can pose a whole set of problems which must be solved before translation can begin; attempting to transliterate and translate what may or may not be loan words from some other language, the identity of which is based on nothing more than conjecture...
The "English alphabet" contains the letters V(vee) and W(double 'U'; in some other languages the name of the letter translates as "double V", or "twin V"), both representing distinct vocalized sounds. English has no "in-between" sound which might be described as a "softened V, but not quite a W". I may or may not have a problem with not being able to transliterate accurately, which may or may not have sent my train of thought onto a sidetrack.

Quote:
The name "Buta Nawa Sari" is Balinese. Buta = evil spirit, but in fact, not all buta are invariably evil; buta inhabit graveyards and forest areas.

The word "Nawa" is commonly understood as "nine", but its other common meaning is as an indefinite length indicator --- you say something is "nawa" and in context that indicates that the something is long, but how long depends upon context.

The word "Sari" is again subject to context, but in all contexts it indicates the "essence" of something. In the use as an attribute of Nawa Sari, that essence is the pandan flower. The problem with the name "Buta Nawa Sari" is two fold, firstly he may not originally have been a buta, secondly the word "nawa" does have at least one other meaning and that other meaning could well solve part of the riddle. Right now the "nawa" problem is being worked on.

One thing appears to be certain, and that is that Nawa Sari is indigenous Balinese.


To begin getting to the point: is "new" one of the other meanings of the word "nawa", in addition to "nine", and as an "indefinite length indicator"?
If not, what other meanings does the word have, that you know of?
If a Buta is "new", would (or could) this change the nature of it's Sari/essence?
If "not all Buta are invariably evil", do they all nevertheless have an inclination toward evil?
Are all Buta invariably male? In the hypothetical case of a female Buta, would the word be spelled differently (as with putra/putri)?
If a Buta was not originally a Buta, what was he previously, and how did he become a Buta?
I don't know much about flowers except that I've loved the fragrance of bunga kamboja since I was a kid. I've read that for the Javanese, it's something like a funeral flower, like white lilies in the Judaeo-Christian tradition. I won't even ask about the pandan flower (because it may be crucial to understanding, and may require more typing than you have time or patience for), but if you care to elaborate...
I'm aware that your time is valuable. If you know of any resources where I might find answers, like books in Gajah Mada Universitas library, for example, there's a librarian at the community college two blocks away whom I would just love to put to the trouble of trying to arrange an inter-library loan.
Thank you for the information you've provided.
Mickey the Finn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd March 2020, 10:49 AM   #42
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,475
Default

Mickey, I do think you might be a wee bit off track with your ideas on the word "nawa".

Nawa is found in Old Javanese, it came into Old Javanese through Kawi, and Kawi took it from Sanscrit. Kawi was integrated into Old Javanese, but as Modern Javanese developed Kawi became the literary language.

At the present time the word "nawa" appears in Modern Balinese where it is included in literary language, and can be regarded as High Balinese or Court Balinese (Balinese is a hierarchical language, as is Javanese). The customary word for "nine" is "sanga". The word "sanga" is used in all levels of Balinese. Modern Balinese also owes much to Old Javanese.

"Nawa" is also a transitive verb in Balinese, which becomes "dawa" as an intransitive verb> "to be long". In Javanese Ngoko (low level) "dawa" also means "long", as in "Oro-oro Dowo" (actually spelt: "ara-ara dawa"), "Long Field", a particular locality in Malang.

In Javanese "nawa" also means "nine" in the literary language.

The above is known, established, recorded and published fact, however, there seems to be a possibility that there is an obscure usage for "nawa" in Bali that means to grip/grasp/hold. We need to find (probably) an old-time dalang as a part of the investigation into this matter. This is being worked on at the moment. One major problem in dealing with Javanese & Balinese is that they are regarded by linguists as "non-standard languages". Javanese particularly so. Using either one adequately is an art form and in my opinion an art that can really only be achieved by somebody born & raised in the Javanese Heartland.

Mickey, I'm not going to attempt to respond to your buta questions, I'd simply have to write far too much to provide an adequate understanding.

I did touch on all of this Buta Nawa Sari thing a few days ago, it was in a thread about a poorly carved hilt. In the context of Buta Nawa Sari, the pandan flower can perhaps be read as representative of Siwa.

In respect of published sources of information. I know of nothing that deals specifically with Balinese Demonology, but there are many books that make mention of these things. However, there is absolutely no possibility at all of understanding aspects of the Balinese Hidden World unless the Balinese Visible world is also understood. We cannot take just one element of a society or culture and try to understand it, even if we understand the entire society & culture the understanding of a single aspect can be out of reach.

Possibly the two books to start with would be Wiener & Murni:-

Visible and Invisible Realms-Margaret J.Wiener
ISBN 0-226-88582-8/1,The University of Chicago Press

Secrets of Bali - J.Copeland & Ni Wayan Murni, ISBN : 978-974-524-118-3

Fred Eiseman is worth time too:- Sekala and Niskala -Fred B. Eisman,jr.,ISBN 0-945971-03-6,Periplus Editions,First Edition 1990.

There are others, but these ones I mention would be a good start, & an easy start, all are very easy to read and can be dealt with pretty quickly.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd March 2020, 08:23 AM   #43
Mickey the Finn
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 26
Default

Mr. Maisey, thank you for going to the trouble of providing such specific information as publishers and dates of publication along with titles, authors, and the all-important ISBNs. I suspect that within the bibliographies of the three books you mentioned I may find at least some of the other titles you alluded to.
I had anticipated that there would be no easy, concise answers, and if there had been, that they would have raised more questions than they answered.
The subject was also somewhat peripheral to the main purpose of this forum.
Despite not answering anything I'd asked about, your reply was remarkably informative and enlightening. Thank you again.
Mickey the Finn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd March 2020, 09:41 AM   #44
A. G. Maisey
Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 5,475
Default

I didn't think I did allude to any other books ,Mickey. I really do not know of any books that will lay it all out, for me it has been many, many years of picking up little bits here and there, and a lot of personal face to face contact.

The three books I mention do not draw upon other published works, they are all first hand experience. Fred Eisemann lived in Bali for a number of years, not as a "White Raja", but in a village and playing his part in the life of that village. Ni Wayan Murni is a very knowledgeable lady who lives in Ubud and has an intimate inside understanding of Balinese life & lore. Prof Wiener is an anthropologist who wrote "Realms" as a product of her research.

If you spend some time with these three books you will have provided yourself with a very firm foundation for further investigation & learning.

EDIT
Mickey, one of the reasons that I avoided answering your specific questions is because the questions were difficult to answer in the absence of a reasonably complete understanding on the part of the questioner, of the structure of the Balinese world view. Maybe you have this understanding, maybe not.

However, I've had time to think this through and I'll try to give you some sort of answer, it might not be exactly what you want, but it is possibly better than nothing.

The Balinese belief system is mostly known as "Bali-Hindu", it is a synthesis of Balinese indigenous beliefs and the Hindu faith. The governing principle in this Balinese belief system is the maintenance of balance:- negative influences must always be held in balance with positive influences. You cannot totally eradicate a negative influence as it is associated with positive influence, but you can protect against the negative influence by encouraging positive influence.

There is one central God, but that God has many aspects, for an ordinary person who is untutored in religious and esoteric knowledge it was deemed necessary a long time ago to personify the aspects of the One God, once a person has reached a sufficient level of knowledge that personification is no longer necessary. The one God is everywhere at any one time, and the various aspects of the One God can also be present anywhere or everywhere at the one time, these aspects can take the form of positive influences and also negative influences.

So, in the world as it is seen by a Balinese person, there are places, or maybe "pockets" is a better word, of both positive and negative influences scattered all over the place. The negative influences are personified by naming them as "Buta" (actually Bhuta is probably a better spelling) or "Kala".

The nature of the Bhuta-Kala negative influence is one of antagonism, annoyance, disturbance, bother, effort:- you misplaced your car keys, you had a motor accident, your boss has spoken harshly to you, you lost $10.

Bhutas & Kalas cause trouble & annoyance, not life threats.

I cannot remember ever hearing of a female Bhuta or Kala, they all seem to male, they are pretty stupid and grossly greedy, they cannot go around corners, offerings to them need not be prepared with care.

The Bhuta-Kala totogan (statue) is simply a personification of the negative influence that permits the ordinary person to focus his mind upon that negative influence and make the correct offerings and use the correct mantras to protect against it.

The really dangerous negative force is the Leyak. A Leyak is the spirit of a human being, it separates from the physical body of the human and assumes another form. Leyaks are really bad news, they mostly seem to cause problems for family members or people known to them, but the really bad ones can cause problems for anybody. A Leyak can be either male or female. The Leyak can cause death and intense suffering. It is possible to kill a Leyak if one has been taught the skills, and if that Leyak is killed, then its physical body will also die.

The discussion of negative forces is something that is best left alone. What I have outlined above is just a very simplified over-view, and I think that perhaps that is more than enough.

Last edited by A. G. Maisey : 3rd March 2020 at 09:10 PM.
A. G. Maisey is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 12:04 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.