Armor breastplate for coments

fernando · 15th June 2009, 07:07 PM

Now, what have i got here?
Seller dated it XVI century; do you Gentlemen think so? Maybe XVII?
It was tagged as European. I believe so; anyway, it came from a Spanish website.
Height: 35 cms.
Thickness: varying from 2 to 4 mm.
It appears to be a cavalry specimen, judging by that litte recess i the bottom, to fit the saddle ... is this correct?

Amazing thing:
While i was searching for info on these things, i have read that they used to be tested with a musket shot from a regulation distance, in a way that many surviving specimens still keep the mark of such shot.
I wonder if the cavity that is visible on the center of this example was a result of such test

.

As usual, your kind coments will be much welcome.

Fernando

.

celtan · 15th June 2009, 09:01 PM

Hola Nando,

"Feels" Iberian, either spanish or portuguese. I agree with your asessment, the holes on its lower right and left are there for missing supports, for lance, shield or harquebus.

Best

M

fernando · 16th June 2009, 04:48 PM

Hi Manolo,

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

..."Feels" Iberian, either spanish or portuguese. I agree with your asessment, the holes on its lower right and left are there for missing supports, for lance, shield or harquebus...

I thought these holes once had rivets to buckle the straps that hold the front to the back plate

.
Fernando

fernando · 17th June 2009, 09:15 PM

It has arrived... and is already hanging on the wall

.
Comparing to the usual specs. (Wallace collection), this is a rather heavy example, with its 4,4 Kgs (nearly 10 pounds).
Besides the usual (missing rivets) holes for the usual strapping to the backplate and (maybe) to the tassets, it has an intriguing set of smaller holes on the left chest, however too low for holding a tilt shoulder (pauldron).
Could they be for an insignia? Unlikely, though.
Oh, i wish these things could speak, to tell their history.
One thing i have just read is that, apparently, Portuguese didn't make armour, instead imported it from Italy and Germany.
However Spaniards did. But if the (Spanish) seller tags this example as being European, could be because he has reasons to beleive this is not Spanish.
Aren't there any armour experts around, to have a say about this item ... please?
Fernando

.

celtan · 18th June 2009, 03:51 AM

Howdy Nando,

It well might be so, but the ones I have previously seen both for the mounting of taces and for straps used only two holes. The way forward position of these, and the position of the wider side of the triangle upwards makes me think these were instead supports for something else...

It is theoretically possible that I might be mistaken, though...

: )

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Manolo,

I thought these holes once had rivets to buckle the straps that hold the front to the back plate

.
Fernando

celtan · 19th June 2009, 06:36 PM

Nice conversation center !

: )

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

It has arrived... and is already hanging on the wall

.
Comparing to the usual specs. (Wallace collection), this is a rather heavy example, with its 4,4 Kgs (nearly 10 pounds).
Besides the usual (missing rivets) holes for the usual strapping to the backplate and (maybe) to the tassets, it has an intriguing set of smaller holes on the left chest, however too low for holding a tilt shoulder (pauldron).
Could they be for an insignia? Unlikely, though.
Oh, i wish these things could speak, to tell their history.
One thing i have just read is that, apparently, Portuguese didn't make armour, instead imported it from Italy and Germany.
However Spaniards did. But if the (Spanish) seller tags this example as being European, could be because he has reasons to beleive this is not Spanish.
Aren't there any armour experts around, to have a say about this item ... please?
Fernando

.

M ELEY · 9th July 2009, 01:48 AM

No expert, but I think Manolo is right. These marks could correspond to the support for a jousting lance. Still, this appears to be a legit fighting piece of armor vs something used for the festivals or tournament.
BTW, posting a much later breast plate (ca 1810-30) on the Swap...

katana · 9th July 2009, 11:26 AM

Fernando,
those holes seem to be lines of three indents / holes .....a trident attack / damage

Regards David

.

fernando · 10th July 2009, 12:11 AM

Hi David,
Thanks for your imaginative colaboration

. You are quite a solid support for riddling situations

.
But then, it would have to be a 'fivedent'

.
Don't know ... aren't the (five) holes too round for that ? wouldn't trident spikes be of angular cross section?
What sort of tridents? was there such weaponry around this cuirass environment?
Fernando

katana · 10th July 2009, 05:38 PM

Hi Fernando,
the idea of the 'trident' was alittle 'tongue in cheek' but, I hope the pictures and quick (but poor

) diagrams may explain my reasoning....

Regards David

.

fernando · 10th July 2009, 06:05 PM

Hi David,
The diagrams are excelent and self explanatory.
I just wasn't swallowing the combination trident vs cuirass in the same scenary. I would also expect that trident perforations would leave an angular mark, not roundish. But that was only my reflex reaction, not necessarily an everlasting one.
I had a feeling you would react

; not with the sketches, which are super, but with a link showing period soldiers handling a trident. This is actually my main problem with this hipothesis.
My 'default' inferrement is that these marks would have been made to hold an insignia or a device.
Someone has already sugested this could be the marks from the riveting of a joust lance rest, for a left handed guy. But then again i think the holes set would have a different format, and also this breast plate looks more like a warrior than a tilt apparatus ... says i, within my ignorance

.
Yours truly.
Fernando

katana · 10th July 2009, 06:27 PM

Hi Fernando,
perhaps not necessarilly a 'trident' but a trident 'headed' polearm. Millitary forks were a popular form, commonly two pronged ...but not all were. Usually used against horsemen but also foot soldiers.

The trouble is .....googling 'trident and weapon' usually brings up the nuclear missile ...and I suspect the armour would be little protection against such a weapon

Regards David

.

katana · 12th July 2009, 09:15 PM

Hi Fernando,
casually browsing the web ....I came across this picture of a magazine....dated circa 1850 .....entitled Bornean weapons.

The Spanish were in Borneo, I believe, late 16th to the 19th century.....notice one of the spearheads

Regards David

fernando · 12th July 2009, 09:48 PM

David, old chum

Are those Bornean weapons from the XVII century?

.
Next thing you show me will be the native who used that trident spear to perforate the Spaniard who had this breastplate on.
Just give me a name, and i'll make him pay for the repairs

.
That was nice of you, young lad

.
Fernando, AKA pouco canhão

.

celtan · 13th July 2009, 01:07 AM

: )

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Fernando,

The trouble is .....googling 'trident and weapon' usually brings up the nuclear missile ...and I suspect the armour would be little protection against such a weapon

.

katana · 13th July 2009, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

David, old chum

Are those Bornean weapons from the XVII century?

.
Next thing you show me will be the native who used that trident spear to perforate the Spaniard who had this breastplate on.
Just give me a name, and i'll make him pay for the repairs
That was nice of you, young lad

.
Fernando, AKA pouco canhão

.

Hi Fernando

,
I would imagine that the spears shown would have been available in the XVII Century.......but not certain. So I have asked some people whom may know ........
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...6975#post86975

"Young Lad" ..... I wish

..... pouco canhão

All the best

David

fernando · 14th July 2009, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

... So I have ask some people whom may know ...

Fantastic

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

... "Young Lad" ..... I wish

...

Allright, then ... "Old chum"

.

Fernando

katana · 18th July 2009, 06:26 PM

Hi Fernando,
no luck on the ethnographic forum

. Found a picture of a Burmese Trident, and very nice it is too. Obviously the prong cross section is not round but is dated 18th C.

The Sai,
the 3 pronged dagger/defensive weapon is almost a hand held trident ....interestingly it is suggested it originated in Indonesia...or thereabouts. The trident as a spearhead or hand held 'implement' makes perfect sense for the island communities where fishing is so important. Afterall medievel farm implements were mounted on shafts and used in battle.

".........The sai is known to have been used in other parts of Asia before its arrival on Okinawa, such as India, China, Indonesia, Siam and Malaysia. Early evidence suggests Indonesia or the neighbouring area as the sai's point of origin. In Malay the sai is known as a tekpi or Indonesia language as chabang (also spelled cabang or tjabang, meaning branch) and is thought to derive from the Indian trishula. The chabang quickly spread through the rest of Indo-China and may have reached Okinawa from one or more of these places simultaneously........."

Regards David

fernando · 18th July 2009, 06:44 PM

Hi David,
Beautiful piece, this Sai.
My tri-thanks for your dedication to this perforated cuirass cause

.
By the way, i have recently unhanged this item from the wall, to rearrange some weapons display, and noticed that the riddling holes only perforated the first layer of steel, having not gone through ... for what it matters.
Much of a coincidence if they were made by the prongs of a weapon

.
... More likely a mechanical operation, for the hanging of whatever ?

. Not much logic in my reasoning, is there?

.
Case not closed, anyway.
May i show you the new rearrangement?
Have a sunny Sunday, my friend

.
Fernando

.

katana · 18th July 2009, 07:06 PM

Dear Fernando,
your display is a bit 'cluttered'......GET RID OF THE FURNITURE

Could the second 'layer' (of the breastplate) be a later addition ? repair ?

Sunny Sunday ... In England

All the best
David

fernando · 18th July 2009, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

... your display is a bit 'cluttered'......GET RID OF THE FURNITURE ...

I am working on my wife for the due agreement

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Could the second 'layer' (of the breastplate) be a later addition ? repair ?

Oh no, i don't think so ... at all. Just the way to make these things on a reinforced basis, i would say.

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Sunny Sunday ... In England

I knew you would react

. I could send you some from here; but then, your skin would go pinky, like the Brits we see over here during summer

.
... just kidding

.

Fernando

William V. · 18th July 2009, 11:44 PM

Hello there,

normally I'm not into this kind of thing but the thread was too interesting for just rummaging through it

The trident-thesis is quite fascinating, but I'm not sure if these marks could have been made by any form of weapon. Don't want to spoil the show, but I doubt that any hand-held weapon could do that kind of damage...

a) Imagine the setting: A spanish soldier is in close-quarters with a native let's say Indian fighter who is using his trident to stab at the soldier. He must use an awful lot of power and speed to procure this kind of punctures. Because normally the metal would either bend inwards (three spikes transferring its energy on a broad area) or the trident would just scrape the metal (which should leave visible scratches). The last case might not happen if the Indian is stabbing at an angle close to 90 degrees in regard to the breastplate. But referring to the sketches this seems unprobable.

b) The form of the punctures also speaks against a battle damage. There are two sets with 3 marks each, which are nearly paralell.... the Indian must have had good eyes to execute the second stab just to get this design

And now comes the really hard part:

I must admit I have no other explanation

All the best

William

P.S. Perhaps some kind of marking that the piece was sorted out of the regular armoury equipment. Similar to the X used by the english
War Departement to mark gund which are to be sold to civilian distributors...

15th June 2009, 07:07 PM	#1
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,638	Cuirasse breastplate for coments Now, what have i got here? Seller dated it XVI century; do you Gentlemen think so? Maybe XVII? It was tagged as European. I believe so; anyway, it came from a Spanish website. Height: 35 cms. Thickness: varying from 2 to 4 mm. It appears to be a cavalry specimen, judging by that litte recess i the bottom, to fit the saddle ... is this correct? Amazing thing: While i was searching for info on these things, i have read that they used to be tested with a musket shot from a regulation distance, in a way that many surviving specimens still keep the mark of such shot. I wonder if the cavity that is visible on the center of this example was a result of such test . As usual, your kind coments will be much welcome. Fernando . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 15th June 2009 at 08:24 PM. Reason: phrase addition.

17th June 2009, 09:15 PM	#4
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,638	Maybe not Iberian, Manolo It has arrived... and is already hanging on the wall . Comparing to the usual specs. (Wallace collection), this is a rather heavy example, with its 4,4 Kgs (nearly 10 pounds). Besides the usual (missing rivets) holes for the usual strapping to the backplate and (maybe) to the tassets, it has an intriguing set of smaller holes on the left chest, however too low for holding a tilt shoulder (pauldron). Could they be for an insignia? Unlikely, though. Oh, i wish these things could speak, to tell their history. One thing i have just read is that, apparently, Portuguese didn't make armour, instead imported it from Italy and Germany. However Spaniards did. But if the (Spanish) seller tags this example as being European, could be because he has reasons to beleive this is not Spanish. Aren't there any armour experts around, to have a say about this item ... please? Fernando . Attached Images

9th July 2009, 11:26 AM	#8
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Fernando, those holes seem to be lines of three indents / holes .....a trident attack / damage Regards David . Attached Images

10th July 2009, 12:11 AM	#9
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,638	Hi David, Thanks for your imaginative colaboration . You are quite a solid support for riddling situations . But then, it would have to be a 'fivedent' . Don't know ... aren't the (five) holes too round for that ? wouldn't trident spikes be of angular cross section? What sort of tridents? was there such weaponry around this cuirass environment? Fernando Last edited by fernando; 10th July 2009 at 05:47 PM.

10th July 2009, 05:38 PM	#10
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Fernando, the idea of the 'trident' was alittle 'tongue in cheek' but, I hope the pictures and quick (but poor ) diagrams may explain my reasoning.... Regards David . Attached Images

15th June 2009, 09:01 PM	#2
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Hola Nando, "Feels" Iberian, either spanish or portuguese. I agree with your asessment, the holes on its lower right and left are there for missing supports, for lance, shield or harquebus. Best M

9th July 2009, 01:48 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,066	No expert, but I think Manolo is right. These marks could correspond to the support for a jousting lance. Still, this appears to be a legit fighting piece of armor vs something used for the festivals or tournament. BTW, posting a much later breast plate (ca 1810-30) on the Swap...

10th July 2009, 06:05 PM	#11
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,638	Hi David, The diagrams are excelent and self explanatory. I just wasn't swallowing the combination trident vs cuirass in the same scenary. I would also expect that trident perforations would leave an angular mark, not roundish. But that was only my reflex reaction, not necessarily an everlasting one. I had a feeling you would react ; not with the sketches, which are super, but with a link showing period soldiers handling a trident. This is actually my main problem with this hipothesis. My 'default' inferrement is that these marks would have been made to hold an insignia or a device. Someone has already sugested this could be the marks from the riveting of a joust lance rest, for a left handed guy. But then again i think the holes set would have a different format, and also this breast plate looks more like a warrior than a tilt apparatus ... says i, within my ignorance . Yours truly. Fernando

10th July 2009, 06:27 PM	#12
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Fernando, perhaps not necessarilly a 'trident' but a trident 'headed' polearm. Millitary forks were a popular form, commonly two pronged ...but not all were. Usually used against horsemen but also foot soldiers. The trouble is .....googling 'trident and weapon' usually brings up the nuclear missile ...and I suspect the armour would be little protection against such a weapon Regards David . Attached Images

12th July 2009, 09:15 PM	#13
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Fernando, casually browsing the web ....I came across this picture of a magazine....dated circa 1850 .....entitled Bornean weapons. The Spanish were in Borneo, I believe, late 16th to the 19th century.....notice one of the spearheads Regards David Attached Images

12th July 2009, 09:48 PM	#14
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,638	David, old chum Are those Bornean weapons from the XVII century? . Next thing you show me will be the native who used that trident spear to perforate the Spaniard who had this breastplate on. Just give me a name, and i'll make him pay for the repairs . That was nice of you, young lad . Fernando, AKA pouco canhão .

18th July 2009, 06:26 PM	#18
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Fernando, no luck on the ethnographic forum . Found a picture of a Burmese Trident, and very nice it is too. Obviously the prong cross section is not round but is dated 18th C. The Sai, the 3 pronged dagger/defensive weapon is almost a hand held trident ....interestingly it is suggested it originated in Indonesia...or thereabouts. The trident as a spearhead or hand held 'implement' makes perfect sense for the island communities where fishing is so important. Afterall medievel farm implements were mounted on shafts and used in battle. ".........The sai is known to have been used in other parts of Asia before its arrival on Okinawa, such as India, China, Indonesia, Siam and Malaysia. Early evidence suggests Indonesia or the neighbouring area as the sai's point of origin. In Malay the sai is known as a tekpi or Indonesia language as chabang (also spelled cabang or tjabang, meaning branch) and is thought to derive from the Indian trishula. The chabang quickly spread through the rest of Indo-China and may have reached Okinawa from one or more of these places simultaneously........." Regards David Attached Images

18th July 2009, 06:44 PM	#19
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,638	Hi David, Beautiful piece, this Sai. My tri-thanks for your dedication to this perforated cuirass cause . By the way, i have recently unhanged this item from the wall, to rearrange some weapons display, and noticed that the riddling holes only perforated the first layer of steel, having not gone through ... for what it matters. Much of a coincidence if they were made by the prongs of a weapon . ... More likely a mechanical operation, for the hanging of whatever ? . Not much logic in my reasoning, is there? . Case not closed, anyway. May i show you the new rearrangement? Have a sunny Sunday, my friend . Fernando . Attached Images

18th July 2009, 07:06 PM	#20
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Dear Fernando, your display is a bit 'cluttered'......GET RID OF THE FURNITURE Could the second 'layer' (of the breastplate) be a later addition ? repair ? Sunny Sunday ... In England All the best David

18th July 2009, 11:44 PM	#22
William V. Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 33	Hello there, normally I'm not into this kind of thing but the thread was too interesting for just rummaging through it The trident-thesis is quite fascinating, but I'm not sure if these marks could have been made by any form of weapon. Don't want to spoil the show, but I doubt that any hand-held weapon could do that kind of damage... a) Imagine the setting: A spanish soldier is in close-quarters with a native let's say Indian fighter who is using his trident to stab at the soldier. He must use an awful lot of power and speed to procure this kind of punctures. Because normally the metal would either bend inwards (three spikes transferring its energy on a broad area) or the trident would just scrape the metal (which should leave visible scratches). The last case might not happen if the Indian is stabbing at an angle close to 90 degrees in regard to the breastplate. But referring to the sketches this seems unprobable. b) The form of the punctures also speaks against a battle damage. There are two sets with 3 marks each, which are nearly paralell.... the Indian must have had good eyes to execute the second stab just to get this design And now comes the really hard part: I must admit I have no other explanation All the best William P.S. Perhaps some kind of marking that the piece was sorted out of the regular armoury equipment. Similar to the X used by the english War Departement to mark gund which are to be sold to civilian distributors...