Are they all really crystal hilted

Jens Nordlunde · 9th March 2010, 08:39 PM

Some of you may have crystal-handled daggers – but is the handle made of crystal?

Some years ago I read in one of my books that the Belgians made glass hilts for export to India, and maybe to Persia as well. Unfortunately I did not take a note, as I was looking for something else – but recently I remembered it.

I have two daggers with crystal hilts, and they have both been tested by a professional, and proven to have be made of crystal, but as there have been an export, however how small it could/would have been – and I don’t think it was small, there must be a lot of glass hilts out there. This does not mean that they are new, as the Belgians made the glass hilts centuries ago – but it is interesting all the same.

Those of you who have crystal hilts, did you ever have them tested?

There is of course another thing to take into consideration, that later hilts may also have been made of glass and sold as crystal hilts.

When I started to collect many, many years ago the fakes/copies were mostly of European pieces, but now that the prices have gone up on the Asian weapons, it seem as if the copying is at full speed – so be aware.

VANDOO · 10th March 2010, 05:16 AM

NATURAL QUARTZ CRYSTAL IS AVAILABLE IN MANY AREAS AND HAS BEEN OF INTREST TO MAN SINCE PRIMATIVE TIMES. CRYSTAL IS MUCH MORE DURABLE THAN GLASS SO WOULD MAKE A BETTER HANDLE BECAUSE IF YOU DROPPED THE KNIFE IT WOULD BE MUCH LESS LIKELY TO BREAK THAN GLASS.
BECAUSE OF MANS INTREST IN PRETTY CRYSTALS AND THE WIDE DISTRIBUTION OF GOOD LOCATIONS FOR MATERIAL. THE LAPIDARY ARTS GO BACK A LONG WAY IN MANS HISTORY. ONE OF THE OLDEST LAPIDARY CENTERS WHERE SOME OF THE VERY BEST WORK HAS BEEN DONE SINCE THE DARK AGES IS IN GERMANY AT THE TOWN OF IDAR OBERSTEIN. ITS WORTH A VISIT IF YOU ARE IN GERMANY THERE ARE TWO MUSEUMS AND MANY FAMILIES WHO STILL DO EXCELLENT WORK AS THEY HAVE FOR MANY GENERATIONS.
GLASS MAY HAVE BEEN MORE DIFFICULT AND EXPENSIVE TO GET AS WELL. JUST MY TWO CENTS WORTH. A BEAUTIFUL DAGGER CONGRADULATIONS.

ALEX · 10th March 2010, 01:50 PM

This is absolutely beautiful dagger, Jens
The "crystal" used on Mughal handles is a Rock Crystal (colourless variety of Quartz). It is carved and polished just like a rock/stone. It comes clear and multi-coloured, with varying degrees of clarity ranging from pure to cloudy with inclusions.
As for glass handles - I don't think the glass can be carved. It would be an extremely difficult and skill intensive process. It had to be cast in shape of a handle, so the difference can be seen upon close inspection.

Jens Nordlunde · 10th March 2010, 02:56 PM

Thank you for the answers.

I don’t know when the Belgians were supposed to exported glass hilts to India, and I don’t even know if the export was big – all I have is what I read in a book long ago, and I don’t even know the title of the book.

What I would like to know is, if others have come across any information’s of this kind, or maybe someone can show us a picture of one of these hilts as I have never seen one.

VANDOO · 10th March 2010, 07:58 PM

I HAVE NOT PERSONALLY READ ANYTHING ABOUT GLASS HILTS SO CAN BE OF NO HELP THERE.

BUT HAVE WORKED WITH GLASS A LITTLE AND CAN SAY IT CAN BE CARVED OR POURED INTO A MOLD TO FORM THE DESIRED SHAPE. A GOOD GLASS WORKER CAN ALSO FASHON AN ACCEPTABLE HANDLE BY HAND WITH A LITTLE GRINDING AND POLISH TO FINISH UP.
FOR A PRESENTATION OR CEREMONIAL DRESS DAGGER OR SWORD GLASS WOULD BE FINE BUT AS MENTIONED FRAGLE. GLASS WOULD HAVE AN ADVANTAGE OVER NATURAL CRYSTAL IN THAT IT COULD BE MADE IN ANY SIZE AND COLOR DESIRED WITH GARANTEED CLARITY IF SO DESIRED. INCLUSIONS , BUBBLES ECT . COULD ALSO BE ADDED.
PERHAPS A LOOK AT THE GLASS INDUSTRYS HISTORY IN VINICE ITALY MIGHT TURN UP SOME INFO, THEY HAVE BEEN MASTERS FOR A VERY LONG TIME. I WOULD BE SURPRIZED IF GLASS HANDLES HAVE NOT BEEN MADE IN SEVERAL COUNTRYS IN THE PAST. TAKE A LOOK AT THE OLD POSTS (ACRHIVES) ON PHIA KAETTA SOME OF THEM HAD CRYSTAL HANDLES, I HOPE THE PICTURES ARE STILL THERE.

kronckew · 10th March 2010, 08:05 PM

glass can also be tempered and hardened, some 'alloys' are quite tough.

the connection of the grip to the blade with a teeny tiny tang and that habaki style bolster does not look suitable for a weapon designed to be actually used, but it does look nice.

Lew · 10th March 2010, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

glass can also be tempered and hardened, some 'alloys' are quite tough.

the connection of the grip to the blade with a teeny tiny tang and that habaki style bolster does not look suitable for a weapon designed to be actually used, but it does look nice.

I think this was more a status piece for the rich it was not ment for combat. One oops

and the hilt would shatter.

Jens Nordlunde · 10th March 2010, 09:33 PM

Thank you for the answers, I too believe that a dagger like the one shown was a court piece, and not meant for battle.

Vandoo is right, the Italians were working with glass for centuries, but so were the Belgians.

Kronckew is right, glass can be made very hard, but what we don’t know is, did they know this technique then?

kronckew · 10th March 2010, 11:34 PM

i seem to recall seeing a venetian cup hilt rapier where the cup was made out of glass.

...or was that in a bond film

Jens Nordlunde · 11th March 2010, 11:50 AM

From the answer on this thread, the number of glass hilts seem to be smaller than I had thought - or maybe the hilts have not been tested.

9th March 2010, 08:39 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Are they all really crystal hilted Some of you may have crystal-handled daggers – but is the handle made of crystal? Some years ago I read in one of my books that the Belgians made glass hilts for export to India, and maybe to Persia as well. Unfortunately I did not take a note, as I was looking for something else – but recently I remembered it. I have two daggers with crystal hilts, and they have both been tested by a professional, and proven to have be made of crystal, but as there have been an export, however how small it could/would have been – and I don’t think it was small, there must be a lot of glass hilts out there. This does not mean that they are new, as the Belgians made the glass hilts centuries ago – but it is interesting all the same. Those of you who have crystal hilts, did you ever have them tested? There is of course another thing to take into consideration, that later hilts may also have been made of glass and sold as crystal hilts. When I started to collect many, many years ago the fakes/copies were mostly of European pieces, but now that the prices have gone up on the Asian weapons, it seem as if the copying is at full speed – so be aware. Attached Images

10th March 2010, 05:16 AM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	NATURAL QUARTZ CRYSTAL IS AVAILABLE IN MANY AREAS AND HAS BEEN OF INTREST TO MAN SINCE PRIMATIVE TIMES. CRYSTAL IS MUCH MORE DURABLE THAN GLASS SO WOULD MAKE A BETTER HANDLE BECAUSE IF YOU DROPPED THE KNIFE IT WOULD BE MUCH LESS LIKELY TO BREAK THAN GLASS. BECAUSE OF MANS INTREST IN PRETTY CRYSTALS AND THE WIDE DISTRIBUTION OF GOOD LOCATIONS FOR MATERIAL. THE LAPIDARY ARTS GO BACK A LONG WAY IN MANS HISTORY. ONE OF THE OLDEST LAPIDARY CENTERS WHERE SOME OF THE VERY BEST WORK HAS BEEN DONE SINCE THE DARK AGES IS IN GERMANY AT THE TOWN OF IDAR OBERSTEIN. ITS WORTH A VISIT IF YOU ARE IN GERMANY THERE ARE TWO MUSEUMS AND MANY FAMILIES WHO STILL DO EXCELLENT WORK AS THEY HAVE FOR MANY GENERATIONS. GLASS MAY HAVE BEEN MORE DIFFICULT AND EXPENSIVE TO GET AS WELL. JUST MY TWO CENTS WORTH. A BEAUTIFUL DAGGER CONGRADULATIONS.

10th March 2010, 01:50 PM	#3
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	This is absolutely beautiful dagger, Jens The "crystal" used on Mughal handles is a Rock Crystal (colourless variety of Quartz). It is carved and polished just like a rock/stone. It comes clear and multi-coloured, with varying degrees of clarity ranging from pure to cloudy with inclusions. As for glass handles - I don't think the glass can be carved. It would be an extremely difficult and skill intensive process. It had to be cast in shape of a handle, so the difference can be seen upon close inspection.

10th March 2010, 02:56 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Thank you for the answers. I don’t know when the Belgians were supposed to exported glass hilts to India, and I don’t even know if the export was big – all I have is what I read in a book long ago, and I don’t even know the title of the book. What I would like to know is, if others have come across any information’s of this kind, or maybe someone can show us a picture of one of these hilts as I have never seen one.

10th March 2010, 07:58 PM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I HAVE NOT PERSONALLY READ ANYTHING ABOUT GLASS HILTS SO CAN BE OF NO HELP THERE. BUT HAVE WORKED WITH GLASS A LITTLE AND CAN SAY IT CAN BE CARVED OR POURED INTO A MOLD TO FORM THE DESIRED SHAPE. A GOOD GLASS WORKER CAN ALSO FASHON AN ACCEPTABLE HANDLE BY HAND WITH A LITTLE GRINDING AND POLISH TO FINISH UP. FOR A PRESENTATION OR CEREMONIAL DRESS DAGGER OR SWORD GLASS WOULD BE FINE BUT AS MENTIONED FRAGLE. GLASS WOULD HAVE AN ADVANTAGE OVER NATURAL CRYSTAL IN THAT IT COULD BE MADE IN ANY SIZE AND COLOR DESIRED WITH GARANTEED CLARITY IF SO DESIRED. INCLUSIONS , BUBBLES ECT . COULD ALSO BE ADDED. PERHAPS A LOOK AT THE GLASS INDUSTRYS HISTORY IN VINICE ITALY MIGHT TURN UP SOME INFO, THEY HAVE BEEN MASTERS FOR A VERY LONG TIME. I WOULD BE SURPRIZED IF GLASS HANDLES HAVE NOT BEEN MADE IN SEVERAL COUNTRYS IN THE PAST. TAKE A LOOK AT THE OLD POSTS (ACRHIVES) ON PHIA KAETTA SOME OF THEM HAD CRYSTAL HANDLES, I HOPE THE PICTURES ARE STILL THERE.

10th March 2010, 08:05 PM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,150	glass can also be tempered and hardened, some 'alloys' are quite tough. the connection of the grip to the blade with a teeny tiny tang and that habaki style bolster does not look suitable for a weapon designed to be actually used, but it does look nice.

10th March 2010, 09:33 PM	#8
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Thank you for the answers, I too believe that a dagger like the one shown was a court piece, and not meant for battle. Vandoo is right, the Italians were working with glass for centuries, but so were the Belgians. Kronckew is right, glass can be made very hard, but what we don’t know is, did they know this technique then?

10th March 2010, 11:34 PM	#9
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,150	i seem to recall seeing a venetian cup hilt rapier where the cup was made out of glass. ...or was that in a bond film

11th March 2010, 11:50 AM	#10
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	From the answer on this thread, the number of glass hilts seem to be smaller than I had thought - or maybe the hilts have not been tested.