Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 18th November 2008, 11:42 AM   #1
Jean B.
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 14
Default Info about Eastern Europe cavalryman ?

I am looking for information about Eastern European cavalrymen of the early 18th C. carrying two swords. A long thrusting sword attached to the sadle and a curved slashing sword hanging at the sword belt.

Information about country, regiments, period, details about the weapons and use, and, if possible, illustration, would be very welcome.

Jean
Jean B. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th November 2008, 12:12 PM   #2
Chris Evans
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 630
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean B.
I am looking for information about Eastern European cavalrymen of the early 18th C. carrying two swords. A long thrusting sword attached to the sadle and a curved slashing sword hanging at the sword belt.

Information about country, regiments, period, details about the weapons and use, and, if possible, illustration, would be very welcome.

Jean


Hi,

Here is one link that may be of help: http://www.jasinski.co.uk/wojna/comp/comp06.htm

Otherwise, do a search with key words such as Polish and Koncerz.

Cheers
Chris
Chris Evans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th November 2008, 12:34 PM   #3
Jens Nordlunde
Member
 
Jens Nordlunde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,710
Default

I can't help you, but try to contact wolviex, as I am sure he would be able to answer all you questions on the subject.
Jens
Jens Nordlunde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th November 2008, 10:31 PM   #4
Jean B.
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 14
Default

Thanks for the link and info.

Jean
Jean B. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th November 2008, 02:49 AM   #5
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 8,146
Default

Hi Jean,
Your most interesting topic brings to my mind almost immediately, Rembrandt's famous painting "The Polish Rider" (1655) which was originally thought to be an officer of the Lisowski Cossacks. In the painting , prominant under the riders right leg is a clearly heavy sword mounted from the saddle, and on the riders left side can be seen the hilt of what is likely his sabre. While the later research more correctly identifying the rider is most interesting, we are focused on the weaponry he is carrying, and the large sword under his leg appears to be a heavy pallasch.

In European armies, of course in Polish as well, the heavy cavalry seem to have often carried these saddle mounted swords in addition to sabres, but typically they were the estoc (=French; Tuck- English; Koncerz-Polish) which was a long thrusting sword with diamond or triangular cross section for piercing mail or plate armor. Eventually these seem to have given way to the heavy pallasche that were apparantly for fighting dismounted, and as the use of armor diminished.

The only reference I can think of offhand is "Polish Armies 1569-1696" by Richard Brzezinski (Osprey, 1987) which does note these heavy swords, but I cannot recall in what degree. I do recall however an interesting note that shows a Sudanese rider in the late 19th century wearing an Ottoman sabre, and a large kaskara broadsword saddle mounted under his leg, reemphasizing the often romanticized presence of European influence in these regions in anachronistic manner.

This really is an interesting topic, and thought that the use of secondary swords mounted under the saddle may have been last used by the Polish Hussars and possibly into the 18th century. Not having really yet looked further, I am under the impression that most European heavy cavalry of the 18th century were dragoons, and essentially mounted infantry with firearms and with the heavy sword as secondary weapon. The light cavalry that developed had firearms as well, but relied heavily on thier light sabres.
At this point, undoubtedly with exceptions, I would think the type of sword carried was either heavy or light, rather than both.

By the latter 19th century, the cavalry sword had regained larger size, and once again returned to the saddle mount, with firearms at the fore.

Looking forward to your thoughts of course, and those of others!!

All the best,
Jim
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th November 2008, 04:40 AM   #6
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 8,146
Default

Hi Jean,
Just following up with some more that I found,
Professor Zygulski in his great article "The Winged Hussars of Poland" (in 'Arms and Armor Annual Vol.I, ed. Robert Held, 1973) notes that in the latter 16th century:
"...the sabre remained the principal sidearm but an additional heavy sabre or pallasch- often a long tuck-was tied to the saddle".

Further, that by the latter 17th century, "...heavy pallasches or tucks with long blades were strapped, as usual, to the saddles".

In other references the estoc, or tuck continued in use through the 17th century particularly in Eastern Europe and Russia, and known as the 'koncerz'.
Another note mentions that by the end of the 16th century the German form of tuck began using more developed guard with quillons and ring guard from the simple cruciform hilt.

Those were the only specific references found so far, and it would seem that from Germany, to mostly Eastern Europe the secondary tuck or pallasche was possibly used by cavalry into as late as mid 18th century.

All best regards,
Jim
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st November 2008, 10:24 AM   #7
Jean B.
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 14
Default

Thank you very much Jim

Jean
Jean B. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st November 2008, 02:38 PM   #8
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 8,146
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean B.
Thank you very much Jim

Jean


You're more than welcome Jean! I'm glad I could return the favor for all the help you've given me through the years!

All the very best,
Jim
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 05:52 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.