How old is the sword?

Multumesc · 17th October 2015, 12:12 PM

This sword is brought from England.I am impressed with its patina.They are on the blade by two pictures of the month.Heard is made in Africa.How old is the sword? Thank you.

Multumesc · 19th October 2015, 01:35 PM

This could be the Mahdist Colonial War (1881-99)?

ariel · 19th October 2015, 04:21 PM

Radu,
Welcome back!
It was a long time, but I am glad you are still alive and kicking:-)

It may be mahdist, but I am more inclined to say 20th century.

They are still made there, AFAIR ( remember:-): haven't we had an article on modern kaskara production in Sudan? ( I am awfully bad in search).

Jim McDougall · 19th October 2015, 04:50 PM

Radu!!!??
Welcome back!!!!! Glad you are here again.

You are right in that this is a kaskara, the standard sword of the Mahdists in those campaigns, but used traditionally into modern times.
However, this is actually more modern interpretation (I believe termed 'Kasallawi' for the region in Sudan these became produced after WWII)
The highly stylized discs on the blade represent the crescent moons used by Hausa smiths in the 19th century, and are now degraded into stylized examples as seen here.
Indeed there is a brilliant article written by Ed here on sword and knife making in the Sudan (in articles archived) and Iain is our resident authority on these swords in the broader sense.

Edster · 19th October 2015, 05:56 PM

Hello Radu,

My guess in mid-20th Century, but could be in a wide range. The blade is fairly "standard" looking, but since the metal and technology has been the same since the British occupation, it could be any time during that period. The grip isn't Hadendawa style so that leaves out Kassala. The maker's mark uses a different sent of punches from those shared by the Kassala smiths at least in the 1980s. The cross guard in more in the Sennar style and forged with the center ridge. Patina might put in in the earlier part of the 20th. Any idea when it was brought back to England?

Regards,
Ed

Jim McDougall · 19th October 2015, 06:11 PM

Good points Ed, the simpler hilt and leather bound could suggest earlier in the century, but the 'dukari' type paired devices on the blade as you note could be 'Kasallawi'. Also of earlier style (I believe) would be the central fuller running full length of the blade.
Possibly these 'dukari' added later to earlier sword?

Edster · 19th October 2015, 11:23 PM

Good eye, Jim. Indeed the "dukari" doesn't appear to be scratched as the rest of the blade in the area and could have been added later. I have a attributed Mahdist sword with a similar central fuller, but with Koranic, moon and lion "engravings". Maybe we could push the date to earlier 20th Cent.

Regards,
Ed

David · 20th October 2015, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Radu,
Welcome back!

I think you might be confusing Multumesc with a previous member Ariel.

Iain · 26th October 2015, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edster

Hello Radu,

My guess in mid-20th Century, but could be in a wide range. The blade is fairly "standard" looking, but since the metal and technology has been the same since the British occupation, it could be any time during that period. The grip isn't Hadendawa style so that leaves out Kassala. The maker's mark uses a different sent of punches from those shared by the Kassala smiths at least in the 1980s. The cross guard in more in the Sennar style and forged with the center ridge. Patina might put in in the earlier part of the 20th. Any idea when it was brought back to England?

Regards,
Ed

The construction is rather crude and shows little of the finish of earlier pieces. I'd be with Ed 100% in dating it no earlier than the 1950s and most likely later.

Particularly the guard is crude with obvious tool marks, the half moon marks are of a particularly degenerated style and the fullers on the blade are ground not forged.

Multumesc · 4th May 2016, 03:40 PM

Yes David, it was created confusion by members ...

Jim McDougall · 4th May 2016, 07:03 PM

I cannot resist being curious M.
This thread and that note from David was nearly half a year ago. This is it?
Wondered if perhaps you had gained any useful information from the tangible entries here regarding the sword you posted.
Updates on older threads are always enticing, especially with new information.......just kinda fell flat with the identity faux pas note.

Hope you are still collecting and curious if your entries here have helped you align a chosen field of collecting or encouraged a special interest.

17th October 2015, 12:12 PM	#1
Multumesc Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Romania Posts: 202	How old is the sword? This sword is brought from England.I am impressed with its patina.They are on the blade by two pictures of the month.Heard is made in Africa.How old is the sword? Thank you. Attached Images

19th October 2015, 01:35 PM	#2
Multumesc Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Romania Posts: 202	How old is the sword? This could be the Mahdist Colonial War (1881-99)?

4th May 2016, 03:40 PM	#10
Multumesc Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Romania Posts: 202	How old is the sword? Yes David, it was created confusion by members ...

19th October 2015, 04:21 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Radu, Welcome back! It was a long time, but I am glad you are still alive and kicking:-) It may be mahdist, but I am more inclined to say 20th century. They are still made there, AFAIR ( remember:-): haven't we had an article on modern kaskara production in Sudan? ( I am awfully bad in search).

19th October 2015, 04:50 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Radu!!!?? Welcome back!!!!! Glad you are here again. You are right in that this is a kaskara, the standard sword of the Mahdists in those campaigns, but used traditionally into modern times. However, this is actually more modern interpretation (I believe termed 'Kasallawi' for the region in Sudan these became produced after WWII) The highly stylized discs on the blade represent the crescent moons used by Hausa smiths in the 19th century, and are now degraded into stylized examples as seen here. Indeed there is a brilliant article written by Ed here on sword and knife making in the Sudan (in articles archived) and Iain is our resident authority on these swords in the broader sense.

19th October 2015, 05:56 PM	#5
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 390	Hello Radu, My guess in mid-20th Century, but could be in a wide range. The blade is fairly "standard" looking, but since the metal and technology has been the same since the British occupation, it could be any time during that period. The grip isn't Hadendawa style so that leaves out Kassala. The maker's mark uses a different sent of punches from those shared by the Kassala smiths at least in the 1980s. The cross guard in more in the Sennar style and forged with the center ridge. Patina might put in in the earlier part of the 20th. Any idea when it was brought back to England? Regards, Ed

19th October 2015, 06:11 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Good points Ed, the simpler hilt and leather bound could suggest earlier in the century, but the 'dukari' type paired devices on the blade as you note could be 'Kasallawi'. Also of earlier style (I believe) would be the central fuller running full length of the blade. Possibly these 'dukari' added later to earlier sword?

19th October 2015, 11:23 PM	#7
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 390	Good eye, Jim. Indeed the "dukari" doesn't appear to be scratched as the rest of the blade in the area and could have been added later. I have a attributed Mahdist sword with a similar central fuller, but with Koranic, moon and lion "engravings". Maybe we could push the date to earlier 20th Cent. Regards, Ed

4th May 2016, 07:03 PM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	I cannot resist being curious M. This thread and that note from David was nearly half a year ago. This is it? Wondered if perhaps you had gained any useful information from the tangible entries here regarding the sword you posted. Updates on older threads are always enticing, especially with new information.......just kinda fell flat with the identity faux pas note. Hope you are still collecting and curious if your entries here have helped you align a chosen field of collecting or encouraged a special interest.