Inlaid Kris and Punang - Page 2

Wayan · 24th June 2006, 05:45 PM

Rick, it is not necessary for you to point out the forum rules to me. Clearly, if you read this entire string, from the start to wherever it is now, you will see that I haven’t violated any forum rules. On the other hand, member Nechesh accused me, and wrote “I don't think you will get very far on this forum disrespecting or diminishing other peoples (sic) cultures.”

THAT was out of line, and completely uncalled for. If you value your forum members by the number of posts they have made, thusly meaning a newcomer has to “pay some dues” or bow in “homage” to other members, then count me out of here!

When you ask about the blawong, I have no idea what you mean. It is not an Indonesian word, nor is it Balinese. I might assume you mean the sarong, or sheath, and if that is the case....A) it is not Jawa, rather it is pure Balinese, and B) the size of Balinese hilts in relation to the kris, and its sarong, is always greater than with any other kris, Indonesian or otherwise. A Balinese hilt, or kris handle is designed to take up the full hand when gripping it.

Wayan · 24th June 2006, 05:59 PM

"These are not "human" figures, they are gods."

Well, golly gee....tell a Hindu something he doesn't know! Of course they are Gods! Siva, Dewi Tara, Dewi Sri, Wishnu....ALL these Gods are rendered in human form! BUT! Not anywhere in Indonesia after the 17th century except in Bali, Lombok (among the Balinese Hindu population) and a few other pockets where the Majapahit eventually fled in the 16th century.

And just for accuracy, in Bali anyway, raksasa is NOT a God! Raksasa is a demon figure.

Andrew · 24th June 2006, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayan

Rick, it is not necessary for you to point out the forum rules to me. Clearly, if you read this entire string, from the start to wherever it is now, you will see that I haven’t violated any forum rules. On the other hand, member Nechesh accused me, and wrote “I don't think you will get very far on this forum disrespecting or diminishing other peoples (sic) cultures.”

THAT was out of line, and completely uncalled for. If you value your forum members by the number of posts they have made, thusly meaning a newcomer has to “pay some dues” or bow in “homage” to other members, then count me out of here!

When you ask about the blawong, I have no idea what you mean. It is not an Indonesian word, nor is it Balinese. I might assume you mean the sarong, or sheath, and if that is the case....A) it is not Jawa, rather it is pure Balinese, and B) the size of Balinese hilts in relation to the kris, and its sarong, is always greater than with any other kris, Indonesian or otherwise. A Balinese hilt, or kris handle is designed to take up the full hand when gripping it.

I disagree. It is clearly necessary for the forum rules to be pointed out to you. I suggest you read the sticky thread posted at the top of the main forum. It may be found here:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4

Quote:

3. FLAMES, INSULTS, BIGOTRY & THREATS

Flames or insults are strictly against the rules. If you disagree with another member's point of view, do so in a mature and civil manner. Civility and respect towards other participants are unconditionally expected.

.......

This is an international discussion group, a fact that the Staff is particularly proud of. Threads or replies promoting or expressing intolerant views towards any group (e.g., culture, race, religion, national origin, etc.) are never appropriate and will not be allowed. Please keep in mind that, while communications on the forum are to be conducted in English, many members are not communicating in their native language, and misunderstandings can occur. The forum is home to members from varied nations and cultures, so it is important to remember that how you say something is often as important as what you say.

In the interim, let's everyone calm down.

Rick · 24th June 2006, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayan

Rick, it is not necessary for you to point out the forum rules to me. Clearly, if you read this entire string, from the start to wherever it is now, you will see that I haven’t violated any forum rules. On the other hand, member Nechesh accused me, and wrote “I don't think you will get very far on this forum disrespecting or diminishing other peoples (sic) cultures.”

THAT was out of line, and completely uncalled for. If you value your forum members by the number of posts they have made, thusly meaning a newcomer has to “pay some dues” or bow in “homage” to other members, then count me out of here!

When you ask about the blawong, I have no idea what you mean. It is not an Indonesian word, nor is it Balinese. I might assume you mean the sarong, or sheath, and if that is the case....A) it is not Jawa, rather it is pure Balinese, and B) the size of Balinese hilts in relation to the kris, and its sarong, is always greater than with any other kris, Indonesian or otherwise. A Balinese hilt, or kris handle is designed to take up the full hand when gripping it.

I'm sorry that you wish to leave Wayan , I really am .

I cannot speak for Nechesh ; I suggest you discuss your issue with his statements with him via PM . ASCII can be very hard to interpret .

Pointing out the punctuation or spelling mistakes of other's posts however is considered in poor taste on any discussion forum .

I think that the issue here may be that some members may feel that you possibly may not realise the depth of accumulated knowledge in this forum ; ergo the request/s for you to use the search function .

No one here is trying to pick a fight with you .
There are no dues to pay .

Blawong is what the Javanese call these wall mounted keris holders and the one you have pictured with your Bali keris is of Javanese origin .
I would still like to know who the character represented by the ukiran carving is .

Rick

Battara · 24th June 2006, 06:59 PM

Wayan, I do think that learning more about Moro kris would be helpful. I do have a Balinese kris with an ivory Ravana hilt that I have made attempts at restoration similar to one of your wonderful pieces. I enjoy Balinese as my favorite keris outside the Philippines. My main area of collecting is PI/Moro and there is grace and beauty to be found in these pieces as well. Just take a look at my avatar - a swaasa/ivory/silver hilt. I'm sure you did not mean any offense by your comments, though your style did come off to me as a little gruff. Perhaps we could learn more from each other since I favor Balinese keris when discussing Indonesian pieces (Bugis royal keris are second for me).

Here is a wonderful example of a Moro kris with silver and gold:

http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=59

Wayan · 24th June 2006, 07:22 PM

Rick, you wrote, “Blawong is what the Javanese call these wall mounted keris holders and the one you have pictured with your Bali keris is of Javanese origin.”

I love learning something new every day, but I never heard the term “blawong” nor does the term appear in my bahasa Indonesia dictionary.

As for this wall mount for a kris being Javanese, that is most interesting, as in fact it was personally carved by a very Bali Balinese, Pande Retug, who serious Indonesian kris collectors will immediately recognize his name. He carved two of these for me some four years ago, and only because I asked. You can caulk that up to just another “Asian thingy.”

Motifs Java, and motifs Bali are very often confused and misunderstood. These misconceptions and inaccuracies have even made their way into Western published books, so now, here in Bali, we are often against the wall trying to change what all too often is considered as “gospel.”

In the end, so long as we keep our heads clear, it doesn’t really matter what “Urban Legends” are written about Bali. Bali belongs to the Balinese, and clearly, the Gods see that “as a good thing.”

Finally, you wrote, “ASCII can be very hard to interpret.” Indeed. And for me, impossible, as I have no clue what ASCII is.

Wayan · 24th June 2006, 07:24 PM

Battara, thank you for your kind post. I admitted, and I will admit again, that I know nothing about Philippine kris, and my previous comments, before seeing Rick’s kris, were all related to the first kris that was posted here.

I sure got into a huge jar of sambal, (or what in Bali is called bumbu), just saying what my eye told me about that one!

I live in Bali, and Bali is my home. I am only in love with Balinese kris, as they are what I understand and know the most. I have some Javanese kris, but only a few, and they are from the Majapahit era, dating from the 15th century. Two of them are excavated pieces, and if I can remain a member here, I will eventually post them. So, once again, many thanks for your thoughtful post, which was clearly well thought out, and sensitive

Rick · 24th June 2006, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayan

Rick, you wrote, “Blawong is what the Javanese call these wall mounted keris holders and the one you have pictured with your Bali keris is of Javanese origin.”

I love learning something new every day, but I never heard the term “blawong” nor does the term appear in my bahasa Indonesia dictionary.

As for this wall mount for a kris being Javanese, that is most interesting, as in fact it was personally carved by a very Bali Balinese, Pande Retug, who serious Indonesian kris collectors will immediately recognize his name. He carved two of these for me some four years ago, and only because I asked. You can caulk that up to just another “Asian thingy.”

Motifs Java, and motifs Bali are very often confused and misunderstood. These misconceptions and inaccuracies have even made their way into Western published books, so now, here in Bali, we are often against the wall trying to change what all too often is considered as “gospel.”

In the end, so long as we keep our heads clear, it doesn’t really matter what “Urban Legends” are written about Bali. Bali belongs to the Balinese, and clearly, the Gods see that “as a good thing.”

Finally, you wrote, “ASCII can be very hard to interpret.” Indeed. And for me, impossible, as I have no clue what ASCII is.

Adios .

Ki Jayamalelo · 24th June 2006, 07:51 PM

Hello Wayan,

welcome to the Forum, we are glad to have some from the motherland of keris and hope to learn from you.
By the way I would like to ask you to share an enlarged picture of your avatar.

KJ

Wayan · 24th June 2006, 08:20 PM

KJ, many thanks for your warm welcome, and how can I deny your request? It takes forever for me to upload, or download pictures, so, as this has already been uploaded to my hosting site, you need only to go here:

http://www.sundream.com/~majapahit/images/M-385a.jpg

Wayan · 24th June 2006, 08:23 PM

Ma'af, ma'af, I forgot to explain that you will likely need to right click your mouse, or pad to enlarge to full screen.

nechesh · 24th June 2006, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayan

"These are not "human" figures, they are gods."

Well, golly gee....tell a Hindu something he doesn't know! Of course they are Gods! Siva, Dewi Tara, Dewi Sri, Wishnu....ALL these Gods are rendered in human form! BUT! Not anywhere in Indonesia after the 17th century except in Bali, Lombok (among the Balinese Hindu population) and a few other pockets where the Majapahit eventually fled in the 16th century.

And just for accuracy, in Bali anyway, raksasa is NOT a God! Raksasa is a demon figure.

Well Wayan, if you go back and reread my post i didn't say that raksasa was a god. I am as aware of his demon status as you are that the others ARE gods. But like the gods that are depicted, raksasa is also in human form and is quite prevailent in Java, even past the 17thC. Perhaps the laws of Islam aren't so cut-and-dry as as you believe. Obviously these hilts exist, i own at least a couple of them. Maybe you need to re-think this belief of yours?

nechesh · 24th June 2006, 09:38 PM

BTW, thanks for correcting my grammer. Your English is impecible. Where did you study? Hopefully you understand it as well as you write it and we will have no misunderstandings between us?

Your photography is also pretty good. These pictures remind me of those by an ebay dealer i once knew of.
Actually, i don't believe blawong is a bahasa word. I think it might be Javanese (as in the language). If you wish me to believe that a Balinese pande carved this blawong for this particular keris then i would be very surprised. This holder is far too small for MOST Bali keris and yours looks very out of proportion in it, don't you think? It is my understanding that these blawongs are fairly specific to Javanese culture, though i would not be surprised in the least if some Balinese carvers were presently carving them. They are highly favored in villages for special talismanic keris.

[QUOTE=Wayan]
The hilt is not recent work, in fact that kris, hilt, sarong and all, has been in the family of a Balinese high priest for several generations. [QUOTE]

Wayan, is the family of this Balinese high priest aware that you are showing their keris pusaka on the internet? I would think that would be most unusual.

Wayan · 24th June 2006, 10:38 PM

OK “Cincinnati” you want to have some fun? That’s fine by me. I’m not taking any of this discussion personally, and I sure hope you’re not. We can have a little banter, suffer some slings and arrows, and convince the forum Gods that we have no hard feelings, nor are we breaking the Leave it to Beaver or Martha Stewart, “it’s a good thing” rules.

On to business. If you want to believe that Raksasa is human in form, than more power to you, but don’t come to Bali and try to convince a Balinese of that. On the other hand, your efforts to do so could be very amusing to many of us.

You also write, “perhaps the laws of Islam aren't so cut-and-dry as as you believe.”

Well, I have to chuckle at that too! Although I am not Muslim, I do live in the most populated Islamic country in the world...but, hey...what do I know about Islam compared to someone from Cincinnati?

Since you brought up my English, and thanked me for a grammar correction, may I again make another point? You wrote, “actually, i don't believe blawong is a bahasa word.” The term, “bahasa word” is meaningless. Bahasa only means language, as in bahasa Indonesia....the Indonesian language, etc.

You also write, “if you wish me to believe that a Balinese pande carved this blawong for this particular keris then i would be very surprised.” What can I say? Slap in some old tapes of Gomer Pyle and follow along with me....”surprise, surprise, surprise.” YES, Pande Retug carved two of these just for me.

I guess what has got me by the short hairs the most is this:

“Wayan, is the family of this Balinese high priest aware that you are showing their keris pusaka on the internet? I would think that would be most unusual.”

Why? Apa? Hello? It’s not like I’m posting naked photos of his daughter! What in the world are you getting at with that? And anyway, it's my kris now, not his.

Andrew · 24th June 2006, 11:11 PM

Unfortunately, this thread is now closed. Feel free to take this delightful exchange to private emails.

Civility is required. If you are incapable of civility, you are not welcome here.

Cannonmn, if you like, please start another thread about your weapons.

24th June 2006, 06:59 PM	#35
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Wayan, I do think that learning more about Moro kris would be helpful. I do have a Balinese kris with an ivory Ravana hilt that I have made attempts at restoration similar to one of your wonderful pieces. I enjoy Balinese as my favorite keris outside the Philippines. My main area of collecting is PI/Moro and there is grace and beauty to be found in these pieces as well. Just take a look at my avatar - a swaasa/ivory/silver hilt. I'm sure you did not mean any offense by your comments, though your style did come off to me as a little gruff. Perhaps we could learn more from each other since I favor Balinese keris when discussing Indonesian pieces (Bugis royal keris are second for me). Here is a wonderful example of a Moro kris with silver and gold: http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=59 Last edited by Battara; 24th June 2006 at 07:10 PM.

24th June 2006, 05:45 PM	#31
Wayan Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ubud, Bali, Indonesia Posts: 16	Rick, it is not necessary for you to point out the forum rules to me. Clearly, if you read this entire string, from the start to wherever it is now, you will see that I haven’t violated any forum rules. On the other hand, member Nechesh accused me, and wrote “I don't think you will get very far on this forum disrespecting or diminishing other peoples (sic) cultures.” THAT was out of line, and completely uncalled for. If you value your forum members by the number of posts they have made, thusly meaning a newcomer has to “pay some dues” or bow in “homage” to other members, then count me out of here! When you ask about the blawong, I have no idea what you mean. It is not an Indonesian word, nor is it Balinese. I might assume you mean the sarong, or sheath, and if that is the case....A) it is not Jawa, rather it is pure Balinese, and B) the size of Balinese hilts in relation to the kris, and its sarong, is always greater than with any other kris, Indonesian or otherwise. A Balinese hilt, or kris handle is designed to take up the full hand when gripping it.

24th June 2006, 05:59 PM	#32
Wayan Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ubud, Bali, Indonesia Posts: 16	"These are not "human" figures, they are gods." Well, golly gee....tell a Hindu something he doesn't know! Of course they are Gods! Siva, Dewi Tara, Dewi Sri, Wishnu....ALL these Gods are rendered in human form! BUT! Not anywhere in Indonesia after the 17th century except in Bali, Lombok (among the Balinese Hindu population) and a few other pockets where the Majapahit eventually fled in the 16th century. And just for accuracy, in Bali anyway, raksasa is NOT a God! Raksasa is a demon figure.

24th June 2006, 07:22 PM	#36
Wayan Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ubud, Bali, Indonesia Posts: 16	Rick, you wrote, “Blawong is what the Javanese call these wall mounted keris holders and the one you have pictured with your Bali keris is of Javanese origin.” I love learning something new every day, but I never heard the term “blawong” nor does the term appear in my bahasa Indonesia dictionary. As for this wall mount for a kris being Javanese, that is most interesting, as in fact it was personally carved by a very Bali Balinese, Pande Retug, who serious Indonesian kris collectors will immediately recognize his name. He carved two of these for me some four years ago, and only because I asked. You can caulk that up to just another “Asian thingy.” Motifs Java, and motifs Bali are very often confused and misunderstood. These misconceptions and inaccuracies have even made their way into Western published books, so now, here in Bali, we are often against the wall trying to change what all too often is considered as “gospel.” In the end, so long as we keep our heads clear, it doesn’t really matter what “Urban Legends” are written about Bali. Bali belongs to the Balinese, and clearly, the Gods see that “as a good thing.” Finally, you wrote, “ASCII can be very hard to interpret.” Indeed. And for me, impossible, as I have no clue what ASCII is.

24th June 2006, 07:24 PM	#37
Wayan Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ubud, Bali, Indonesia Posts: 16	Battara, thank you for your kind post. I admitted, and I will admit again, that I know nothing about Philippine kris, and my previous comments, before seeing Rick’s kris, were all related to the first kris that was posted here. I sure got into a huge jar of sambal, (or what in Bali is called bumbu), just saying what my eye told me about that one! I live in Bali, and Bali is my home. I am only in love with Balinese kris, as they are what I understand and know the most. I have some Javanese kris, but only a few, and they are from the Majapahit era, dating from the 15th century. Two of them are excavated pieces, and if I can remain a member here, I will eventually post them. So, once again, many thanks for your thoughtful post, which was clearly well thought out, and sensitive

24th June 2006, 07:51 PM	#39
Ki Jayamalelo Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 18	Hello Wayan, welcome to the Forum, we are glad to have some from the motherland of keris and hope to learn from you. By the way I would like to ask you to share an enlarged picture of your avatar. KJ

24th June 2006, 08:20 PM	#40
Wayan Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ubud, Bali, Indonesia Posts: 16	KJ, many thanks for your warm welcome, and how can I deny your request? It takes forever for me to upload, or download pictures, so, as this has already been uploaded to my hosting site, you need only to go here: http://www.sundream.com/~majapahit/images/M-385a.jpg

24th June 2006, 08:23 PM	#41
Wayan Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ubud, Bali, Indonesia Posts: 16	Ma'af, ma'af, I forgot to explain that you will likely need to right click your mouse, or pad to enlarge to full screen.

24th June 2006, 09:38 PM	#43
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	BTW, thanks for correcting my grammer. Your English is impecible. Where did you study? Hopefully you understand it as well as you write it and we will have no misunderstandings between us? Your photography is also pretty good. These pictures remind me of those by an ebay dealer i once knew of. Actually, i don't believe blawong is a bahasa word. I think it might be Javanese (as in the language). If you wish me to believe that a Balinese pande carved this blawong for this particular keris then i would be very surprised. This holder is far too small for MOST Bali keris and yours looks very out of proportion in it, don't you think? It is my understanding that these blawongs are fairly specific to Javanese culture, though i would not be surprised in the least if some Balinese carvers were presently carving them. They are highly favored in villages for special talismanic keris. [QUOTE=Wayan] The hilt is not recent work, in fact that kris, hilt, sarong and all, has been in the family of a Balinese high priest for several generations. [QUOTE] Wayan, is the family of this Balinese high priest aware that you are showing their keris pusaka on the internet? I would think that would be most unusual.

24th June 2006, 10:38 PM	#44
Wayan Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ubud, Bali, Indonesia Posts: 16	OK “Cincinnati” you want to have some fun? That’s fine by me. I’m not taking any of this discussion personally, and I sure hope you’re not. We can have a little banter, suffer some slings and arrows, and convince the forum Gods that we have no hard feelings, nor are we breaking the Leave it to Beaver or Martha Stewart, “it’s a good thing” rules. On to business. If you want to believe that Raksasa is human in form, than more power to you, but don’t come to Bali and try to convince a Balinese of that. On the other hand, your efforts to do so could be very amusing to many of us. You also write, “perhaps the laws of Islam aren't so cut-and-dry as as you believe.” Well, I have to chuckle at that too! Although I am not Muslim, I do live in the most populated Islamic country in the world...but, hey...what do I know about Islam compared to someone from Cincinnati? Since you brought up my English, and thanked me for a grammar correction, may I again make another point? You wrote, “actually, i don't believe blawong is a bahasa word.” The term, “bahasa word” is meaningless. Bahasa only means language, as in bahasa Indonesia....the Indonesian language, etc. You also write, “if you wish me to believe that a Balinese pande carved this blawong for this particular keris then i would be very surprised.” What can I say? Slap in some old tapes of Gomer Pyle and follow along with me....”surprise, surprise, surprise.” YES, Pande Retug carved two of these just for me. I guess what has got me by the short hairs the most is this: “Wayan, is the family of this Balinese high priest aware that you are showing their keris pusaka on the internet? I would think that would be most unusual.” Why? Apa? Hello? It’s not like I’m posting naked photos of his daughter! What in the world are you getting at with that? And anyway, it's my kris now, not his.

24th June 2006, 11:11 PM	#45
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Unfortunately, this thread is now closed. Feel free to take this delightful exchange to private emails. Civility is required. If you are incapable of civility, you are not welcome here. Cannonmn, if you like, please start another thread about your weapons.