A Nimcha

blue lander · 28th February 2014, 09:58 PM

Recently 3 or 4 Nimchas went up for auction and I was able to snag the cheapest and plainest of them. It's quite dirty and rusty and I'm still in the process of cleaning it, but I was wonder if anybody could comment on its age/origins.

One of the quillions has snapped off I assume a long time ago because the break has the same patina as the rest of the guard. The blade's thinner than I expected, but it does have a distal taper and flexes nicely. No markings on the blade. There are a few fairly deep dings in the blade towards the tip that I assume are from blade on blade contact.

kahnjar1 · 1st March 2014, 01:08 AM

Hi Blue Lander,
Looks to me like possible Moroccan origin, though I think Moroccan Nimcha usually have 4 quillons, two each edge of blade. Apart from that I can not tell you anything, but no doubt there will be other replies with more information.
Stuart

blue lander · 2nd March 2014, 11:22 PM

Interesting, thank you. I looked for any evidence of more snapped off quillions, but I only saw the one missing on the top.

Does anybody know how thick nimcha blades are typically, or do they vary?

blue lander · 3rd March 2014, 06:25 PM

Speaking of nimcha markings, here's pictures of two of the nimchas I didn't win. The first one, I assume, is a British blade from the reign of Queen Victoria (I wonder how that ended up in a nimcha), but I can't make heads or tails of the second one.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 5th March 2014, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue lander

Speaking of nimcha markings, here's pictures of two of the nimchas I didn't win. The first one, I assume, is a British blade from the reign of Queen Victoria (I wonder how that ended up in a nimcha), but I can't make heads or tails of the second one.

Salaams blue lander...I meant to reply earlier...Your two swords I suspect are Red Sea variants.. The details are both interesting though I know loads of swords were fitted in Yemen with Karabela hilts.. wrongly nicknamed by me as falcon heads despite the likeness...The squigles on the second blade look like an attempt to copy the Peter Munich style of decor.. see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=peter+munich
Blades of European provenance are commonly appearing now as Yemeni traders sell big lots in bulk to regional markets including the main souks of Oman and UAE.
The bladesmiths at Ras al Khaimah are famous for adding the VR Crown called locally "Taj" to any blade that has a vague chance of fetching a few extra dollars through its vague association with this design..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

blue lander · 5th March 2014, 07:28 PM

Huh, I would have never thought that those marks were locally applied. Thank you. Do you have any thoughts on the unmarked nimcha on my first post? There are three or four delaminations on the blade by the fullers that make me think it wasn't European manufacture.

A.alnakkas · 5th March 2014, 07:55 PM

I dont see a reason why these are locally applied. Omani's do apply a crown on their recently made weapons but we are talking about North African weapons here and North African weapons tend to have European blades quite often.

Jim McDougall · 5th March 2014, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

I dont see a reason why these are locally applied. Omani's do apply a crown on their recently made weapons but we are talking about North African weapons here and North African weapons tend to have European blades quite often.

Hi Lofty,
Actually these triple fuller blades do not correspond to blades on any British swords I can think of during the Victorian period (1837-1901) and a large stamp like this would not have been applied in the center of the blade in this manner The only blades with the VR cypher were officers and those were etched in the blade. Acceptance stamps using crown and initials were small and near forte, usually GR. In the Victorian period the acceptance stamps were WD post 1855 and BO and arrow prior.

This is a most impressive stamp, but not in accord with anything normally used on British blades, the blade form not withstanding. As always I look forward to information otherwise, but this is my personal experience.

Best regards,
Jim

spiral · 5th March 2014, 10:50 PM

I have to agree Jim.. Ibrahim, Although I suspect the range of such fake marks may include North Africa as well as the Arabian Peninsula....

This machete was for sale on ebay a couple of years ago...

A Fascinating range of unlikely marks!

Spiral

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 6th March 2014, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

I dont see a reason why these are locally applied. Omani's do apply a crown on their recently made weapons but we are talking about North African weapons here and North African weapons tend to have European blades quite often.

Salaams A.alnakkas . I think the reason that they are applied is to raise the price...or reflect some sort of recognisable, admirable prowess in the weapon. I have identified the workshop that adds Taj stamps in Ras Al Khaimah. I own a few myself. There are many blades either rehilted and stamped there or just rehilted... The latest one is a Karabela ~ I dont have a picture but the souk is on our doorstep (500 yards)so I will try to obtain. Many blades of European manufacture flood in through the Red Sea region not least rehilted Ethiopian (originally German) blades curved and straight, via Sanaa..Yemen. These blades now appear in quantity in Muscat, Salalah and Sharjah ...such is the situation these days.

It is, however, a bit puzzling since though we see Taj crowns they are not accompanied by the VR strike... at least I have not seen one yet.. In addition the crown style is not the same leading me to suggest a different stamp location ...who knows where? For examples of RAK stamps see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=omani+sayf at #318 and #326.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

blue lander · 6th March 2014, 12:33 PM

Here's one more from the lot I didn't win. I suppose it isn't a Nimcha, though

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 6th March 2014, 02:44 PM

Hi Blue Lander~ we have to see the whole item please...oh you say you didnt win those so maybe no pictures...ok... Looks like hogs back or eye lash, fairly typical stamps, flanked by a series of dots that could be celestial...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Jim McDougall · 6th March 2014, 04:40 PM

Back to the original question on Moroccan sa'if (collectively termed 'nimcha' typically), the blades on these seem invariably to be European, most commonly of course German trade blades or other imports. While these are actually sabres, in many cases they are mounted with straight backsword blades, and of course the variations go on.

On that note, regarding the VR crown on this example, this is a remarkably well done example, and I would note that in Gilkerson ("Boarders Away" 1991, p.88) images are shown of a catalog from Schnitzler & Kirshbaum believed mid 19th c. This Solingen firm was producing many blades of 'cutlass' form in variation, many with triple fullers as on this example.
One of the 'cutlass' blades was shown with a crown/GR stamp in the same center blade location. This was of course the Georgian cypher often seen on early British naval cutlasses (1804).
It is indicated that these blades of much earlier form were produced for export by this firm well through the 19th c. so I wonder if it would not be reasonable to presume that the same crown and VR might be placed on these long venerated blades in Solingen by this firm or another? The various celestial type motif seem to further suggest Solingen mfg.

On the second sword shown, the components resemble European officers hilt elements (possibly French) obviously rehilted, and the marks on the blade are rather unusual interpretations of European marks often termed 'cogwheels' (often seen also as stars or sun with radiating lines as well) placed in also unusual context with the 'sickle' marks of European use so popularly used on 'trade' blades.
This configuration resembles other stamped groupings sometimes associated with this Solingen firm, but in most cases these are stars.

These blades seem very likely Solingen imports which may have entered North Africa through any number of entrepots, but do seem 19th century, though probably late. In my own opinion I have always considered these admittedly composite swords quite intriguing as they do have an interesting history of their own despite their often later fabrication.

It remains possible that such stamped markings, in this case with the crowned cypher, may have been stamped locally in one of these entrepots, however it is important to note that Solingen was quite notably involved of course in the use of spurious stamps, marks, inscriptions etc. as well .

I would also note, in a distant context, that in Khyber regions of India's northwest (now Pakistan), the spurious stamping of EIC marks as well as VR marks etc. were placed on modernly reproduced weapons into recent times.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 6th March 2014, 04:51 PM

Hunting about in Library I note the interesting situation with Naval Cutlasses and the GR, WR, and VR marks ..see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ia+blade+stamp

For spirals in the tunic ..though depicted holding a sword see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=peter+munch

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

blue lander · 6th March 2014, 09:21 PM

So it's most likely the nimcha blade in my original post is European? The blade's only 3mm thick and 28mm wide at its blade. It just seems thin.

spiral · 6th March 2014, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Hunting about in Library I note the interesting situation with Naval Cutlasses and the GR, WR, and VR marks ..see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ia+blade+stamp .

Theres a lot of Crown & monarch fakes around... similar stamps appear on some old kukri from India. {probably 20s Id guess..] as well as the African machete I showed earlier in the thread...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

For spirals in the tunic ..though depicted holding a sword see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=peter+munch
.

Ahhhh ! You have photos of me in my magnificent tunic! Armed with a sword! Excellent! Please enjoy them!

spiral

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 7th March 2014, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

Theres a lot of Crown & monarch fakes around... similar stamps appear on some old kukri from India. {probably 20s Id guess..] as well as the African machete I showed earlier in the thread...

Ahhhh ! You have photos of me in my magnificent tunic! Armed with a sword! Excellent! Please enjoy them!

spiral

Salaams Spiral ! Spirals on Spirals so to speak !

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

28th February 2014, 09:58 PM	#1
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	A Nimcha Recently 3 or 4 Nimchas went up for auction and I was able to snag the cheapest and plainest of them. It's quite dirty and rusty and I'm still in the process of cleaning it, but I was wonder if anybody could comment on its age/origins. One of the quillions has snapped off I assume a long time ago because the break has the same patina as the rest of the guard. The blade's thinner than I expected, but it does have a distal taper and flexes nicely. No markings on the blade. There are a few fairly deep dings in the blade towards the tip that I assume are from blade on blade contact. Attached Images Last edited by blue lander; 28th February 2014 at 10:52 PM.

3rd March 2014, 06:25 PM	#4
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	Speaking of nimcha markings, here's pictures of two of the nimchas I didn't win. The first one, I assume, is a British blade from the reign of Queen Victoria (I wonder how that ended up in a nimcha), but I can't make heads or tails of the second one. Attached Images

5th March 2014, 10:50 PM	#9
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	I have to agree Jim.. Ibrahim, Although I suspect the range of such fake marks may include North Africa as well as the Arabian Peninsula.... This machete was for sale on ebay a couple of years ago... A Fascinating range of unlikely marks! Spiral Attached Images

6th March 2014, 12:33 PM	#11
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	Here's one more from the lot I didn't win. I suppose it isn't a Nimcha, though Attached Images

1st March 2014, 01:08 AM	#2
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,728	Hi Blue Lander, Looks to me like possible Moroccan origin, though I think Moroccan Nimcha usually have 4 quillons, two each edge of blade. Apart from that I can not tell you anything, but no doubt there will be other replies with more information. Stuart

2nd March 2014, 11:22 PM	#3
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	Interesting, thank you. I looked for any evidence of more snapped off quillions, but I only saw the one missing on the top. Does anybody know how thick nimcha blades are typically, or do they vary?

5th March 2014, 07:28 PM	#6
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	Huh, I would have never thought that those marks were locally applied. Thank you. Do you have any thoughts on the unmarked nimcha on my first post? There are three or four delaminations on the blade by the fullers that make me think it wasn't European manufacture.

5th March 2014, 07:55 PM	#7
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,338	I dont see a reason why these are locally applied. Omani's do apply a crown on their recently made weapons but we are talking about North African weapons here and North African weapons tend to have European blades quite often.

6th March 2014, 02:44 PM	#12
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Hi Blue Lander~ we have to see the whole item please...oh you say you didnt win those so maybe no pictures...ok... Looks like hogs back or eye lash, fairly typical stamps, flanked by a series of dots that could be celestial... Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi

6th March 2014, 04:40 PM	#13
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Back to the original question on Moroccan sa'if (collectively termed 'nimcha' typically), the blades on these seem invariably to be European, most commonly of course German trade blades or other imports. While these are actually sabres, in many cases they are mounted with straight backsword blades, and of course the variations go on. On that note, regarding the VR crown on this example, this is a remarkably well done example, and I would note that in Gilkerson ("Boarders Away" 1991, p.88) images are shown of a catalog from Schnitzler & Kirshbaum believed mid 19th c. This Solingen firm was producing many blades of 'cutlass' form in variation, many with triple fullers as on this example. One of the 'cutlass' blades was shown with a crown/GR stamp in the same center blade location. This was of course the Georgian cypher often seen on early British naval cutlasses (1804). It is indicated that these blades of much earlier form were produced for export by this firm well through the 19th c. so I wonder if it would not be reasonable to presume that the same crown and VR might be placed on these long venerated blades in Solingen by this firm or another? The various celestial type motif seem to further suggest Solingen mfg. On the second sword shown, the components resemble European officers hilt elements (possibly French) obviously rehilted, and the marks on the blade are rather unusual interpretations of European marks often termed 'cogwheels' (often seen also as stars or sun with radiating lines as well) placed in also unusual context with the 'sickle' marks of European use so popularly used on 'trade' blades. This configuration resembles other stamped groupings sometimes associated with this Solingen firm, but in most cases these are stars. These blades seem very likely Solingen imports which may have entered North Africa through any number of entrepots, but do seem 19th century, though probably late. In my own opinion I have always considered these admittedly composite swords quite intriguing as they do have an interesting history of their own despite their often later fabrication. It remains possible that such stamped markings, in this case with the crowned cypher, may have been stamped locally in one of these entrepots, however it is important to note that Solingen was quite notably involved of course in the use of spurious stamps, marks, inscriptions etc. as well . I would also note, in a distant context, that in Khyber regions of India's northwest (now Pakistan), the spurious stamping of EIC marks as well as VR marks etc. were placed on modernly reproduced weapons into recent times.

6th March 2014, 04:51 PM	#14
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Hunting about in Library I note the interesting situation with Naval Cutlasses and the GR, WR, and VR marks ..see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ia+blade+stamp For spirals in the tunic ..though depicted holding a sword see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=peter+munch Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

6th March 2014, 09:21 PM	#15
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	So it's most likely the nimcha blade in my original post is European? The blade's only 3mm thick and 28mm wide at its blade. It just seems thin.