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Old 7th August 2017, 06:35 AM   #121
Marcokeris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bejo
Hi,

This is my figural hilt collection. Any idea about this hilt origin?

Thank you,

Best regards,

Joe

It could be East Java
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Old 7th August 2017, 11:47 AM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bejo
Any idea about this hilt origin?


Hello Joe,

your hilt could show Bima, in many books it's described as this and like Marco said could originate from East Java.
Here my example, sadly with carved away crown/bun.

Regards,
Detlef
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Old 7th August 2017, 12:47 PM   #123
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Some Jawa Deman handles, variations in style, material and origin. But the most coming from Sumatra. Since they are in display now I've thought to share some pictures.
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Old 7th August 2017, 01:11 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
Some Jawa Deman handles, variations in style, material and origin. But the most coming from Sumatra. Since they are in display now I've thought to share some pictures.


Hello Detlef,

very nice collection and presentation!

Here is my unknown silver hilt, very detailed and made of a massive piece of silver, could be a kind of Cocetan. Maybe someone knows more.

No better pics, sorry.


Best wishes,
Roland
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Old 7th August 2017, 01:27 PM   #125
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Here the other Sumatra display, need to get cleaned again.
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Old 7th August 2017, 01:36 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland_M
...very nice collection and presentation!


Thank you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland_M
Here is my unknown silver hilt, very detailed and made of a massive piece of silver, could be a kind of Cocetan. Maybe someone knows more.


I doubt that someone will be able to name this hilt. Balinese "carvers" use often their own interpretation of traditional figures for their handles.

Regards,
Detlef
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Old 8th August 2017, 12:50 AM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcokeris
It could be East Java

Hello Marco,

Thank you for your help.
There is a hilt that you posted earlier that looks similar with mine. In reply 58, picture number 4. Maybe it comes from same region.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
Hello Joe,

your hilt could show Bima, in many books it's described as this and like Marco said could originate from East Java.
Here my example, sadly with carved away crown/bun.

Regards,
Detlef


Hello Detlef,

Thank you for your explanation. Yes, both of the hilts look similar. I have another hilts that maybe from East Java, too. Quite unique to me, one of the hand holds a mask/ head. The other hand holds a blade.

I am just focusing at Javanese tosan aji right now, so I don't know about other region's hilt. But your collection is very nice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland_M
Hello Detlef,

very nice collection and presentation!

Here is my unknown silver hilt, very detailed and made of a massive piece of silver, could be a kind of Cocetan. Maybe someone knows more.

No better pics, sorry.


Best wishes,
Roland


Hello Roland,

I am curious about what figural in your hilt.
Is that hilt ressemble a dragon?



One of my Madura hilt collection for patrem (maybe Donoriko?). Also a hilt from West Java style. A friend of mine told me it is called Ganesha.


Best regards,

Joe
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Old 8th August 2017, 05:55 AM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bejo
Hello Roland,

I am curious about what figural in your hilt.
Is that hilt ressemble a dragon?

Best regards,

Joe


Hello Joe,

Yes I think so. It seems to be the birth of a dragon. The dragons tail is a 13 lok-blade (at least I think so) with a beautiful Ganesha-figure, no elephant, an Indian Ganesha with four arms. The hilt was formed from a massive piece of silver.


Best wishes,
Roland
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Old 8th August 2017, 08:37 AM   #129
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I believe investigation will show that the hilt is fabricated from quite light sheet silver, then chased and filled with some supportive mixture, usually jabung.
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Old 8th August 2017, 09:27 AM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
I believe investigation will show that the hilt is fabricated from quite light sheet silver, then chased and filled with some supportive mixture, usually jabung.



Question: What weight of the hilt would you expect from a light sheet silver hilt with some supportive mixture?
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Old 8th August 2017, 09:50 AM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bejo
I have another hilts that maybe from East Java, too. Quite unique to me, one of the hand holds a mask/ head. The other hand holds a blade.


Hello Joe,

this could be a hilt from Cirebon or from the North-East coast of Java. Like you said byself, a very unique handle and very nice.

Regards,
Detlef
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Old 8th August 2017, 11:52 AM   #132
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Image below:- 12.5cm high, 225gm.
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Old 8th August 2017, 02:00 PM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
Image below:- 12.5cm high, 225gm.


Thanks for the picture.

My hilt got the same dimensions as your example and weighs ~235 grams. I believe it is partially casted (hollow casted) and carved/grinded. The flames around the nose and other details has been added later in the process. Not more than a guess.
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Old 8th August 2017, 02:01 PM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland_M
Here is my unknown silver hilt, very detailed and made of a massive piece of silver, could be a kind of Cocetan. Maybe someone knows more.
No better pics, sorry.

I can't say i have ever seen a Balinese hilt with this style and figure. Seems very unusual to me. I don't think this was intended to be a Kocetan. Only 2 arms (or legs) and their appear to be talons on the hands/feet.
Can you make some better photos of this hilt Roland. I would love to see it better.
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Old 8th August 2017, 03:48 PM   #135
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In the exhibition "Götter-Schmiede" was shown a Bali Keris with a nearly identical hilt, here a picture from the catalog. Sorry for the poor picture quality.
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Old 8th August 2017, 04:32 PM   #136
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hmmm....now i am even more intrigued...
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Old 8th August 2017, 04:58 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David
hmmm....now i am even more intrigued...


Hi David,

here the picture from the complete keris, the sarung from Roland's keris is very similar and it looks like they coming from the same workshop.
Both examples have a scabbard complete covered with silver sheet, with very good embossing and engraving work, outstanding work indeed. It's not exactly dated but guessed by the work done on this piece to end of the 19th to early 20th century. I would concur with this dating.
Here a picture from this keris, sadly it will be difficult to see the fine work.

Regards,
Detlef
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Old 8th August 2017, 05:13 PM   #138
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Thanks Detlef.
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Old 8th August 2017, 10:06 PM   #139
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Roland, I have never known a Balinese silver worker to cast this type of silver work, these hilts, and the thousands upon thousands of other silver objects that the craftsmen around Celuk make are 99.9% fabricated. Same goes for the workers in Kota Gede in Central Jawa.

There are production reasons and cost reasons for this. Casting is only economical when the quantity of silver used is not a consideration, or when the labour involved in casting will be offset by mass production. These hilts are not mass produced, they are one off productions.
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Old 9th August 2017, 07:37 AM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
Hi David,

here the picture from the complete keris, the sarung from Roland's keris is very similar and it looks like they coming from the same workshop.
Both examples have a scabbard complete covered with silver sheet, with very good embossing and engraving work, outstanding work indeed. It's not exactly dated but guessed by the work done on this piece to end of the 19th to early 20th century. I would concur with this dating.
Here a picture from this keris, sadly it will be difficult to see the fine work.

Regards,
Detlef


From the pics (so I may be wrong) I doubt that these pieces are that old and the style of embossed decoration is not Balinese?
Regards
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Old 9th August 2017, 08:31 AM   #141
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Yes Jean, absolutely.

Ornamentation is not Balinese style, the "dragon"(?) is not Balinese style. I cannot see much of Bali anywhere, however, to the best of my knowledge China has not yet started to dabble in the keris market, the way it has in other collectables markets, so I'm prepared to accept this as Balinese for the time being.
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Old 9th August 2017, 10:43 AM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David
I can't say i have ever seen a Balinese hilt with this style and figure. Seems very unusual to me. I don't think this was intended to be a Kocetan. Only 2 arms (or legs) and their appear to be talons on the hands/feet.
Can you make some better photos of this hilt Roland. I would love to see it better.


Hello David,

sure and please here they are. I cannot say anything about the Ificah-example except that mine is much more detailed and more skillfully made. I can see traces from engraving. My example is from ~1900 or earlier. BTW, the Mendak is decorated with very fine rubys. The last picture with the blade is from the auction house. A very rare four armed Ganesha figure. I turned the hilt 180° immediately after it arrived.


Regards,
Roland
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Last edited by Roland_M : 9th August 2017 at 11:12 AM.
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Old 9th August 2017, 02:17 PM   #143
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In many ways it looks more like a Barong or lion than a dragon, but it still does not seem to fit into any known Balinese style for said creatures. It's impressive regardless.
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Old 9th August 2017, 02:30 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David
In many ways it looks more like a Barong or lion than a dragon, but it still does not seem to fit into any known Balinese style for said creatures. It's impressive regardless.


Dragon is just a guess. I would say it is a zoomorphic figure with different influences. The Indonesians are the best artists worldwide with great advance related to zoomorphic figures. The flat and smooth blade seems to be from Bali.
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Old 9th August 2017, 02:32 PM   #145
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Roland, just to confirm:- the keris shown in post 142 is your keris, and it is attributed to pre-1900?
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Old 9th August 2017, 03:40 PM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
Roland, just to confirm:- the keris shown in post 142 is your keris, and it is attributed to pre-1900?


Alan, yes this is my Keris and the description of the auction house was 1800 or earlier. If you could see the scabbard, you would see, that this Keris is older than 30- 50 years or so. Detlef (sajen) saw this Keris many times and he also said ~1900.
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Old 9th August 2017, 09:23 PM   #147
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Thank you Roland.

Do you know if there was reliable provenance, and if there was not, who did the appraisal?
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Old 10th August 2017, 08:04 AM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
Thank you Roland.

Do you know if there was reliable provenance, and if there was not, who did the appraisal?


My pleasure Alan,

I have no informations about the person which made the description for the auction house. German Auction houses often use the description from the seller without further investigations. So the description from the auction house is not very reliable in many cases.
Around 1900 is Detlefs (sajen) Statement, he is extraordinary experienced, he got many books and saw thousends of Keris. If you like to see the scabbard, I will send some pictures to you via Email. The scabbard is worth to have a look on it.
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Old 10th August 2017, 09:00 AM   #149
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Thank you Roland.
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Old 10th August 2017, 10:20 AM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland_M
..... he got many books and saw thousends of Keris.



I don't saw thousends of Keris, houndreds sounds better!

Last edited by Sajen : 10th August 2017 at 11:45 AM.
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