Sgian dubh for comment

Sajen · 1st January 2013, 03:25 PM

Hello,

this is my first post in this section. Have get this small dirk via ebay and would like to know more about it. Is it original or a copy? How is it used (formal dress)? How old could it be?

Thank you in advance,

Detlef

Henk · 1st January 2013, 04:10 PM

Detlef.

I like these knives a lot.

I bought my first one 30 years ago in Scotland. Looks similar to yours. Personally I would say it isn't a copy. Still used when wearing a kilt.

These knives are still made today and i suppose the quality will differ.
Sometimes you can buy an older example.

Sajen · 1st January 2013, 04:25 PM

Hello Henk,

thank you and a Happy New Year! I have done in the meantime some google research and think as well that it is original. It coming from the States so it will have some age.

Regards,

Detlef

fernando · 1st January 2013, 05:56 PM

Hi Detlef,
Welcome to the Europan section

-
I assume that by now you have already spotted this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sgian-dubh
I know nothing abouth these knives but, wouldn't this be an industrial made piece and not a handcraft example ? My suggestion is based on the fact that it has that CJ SCOTLAND stamp, as if it were made for export

Sajen · 1st January 2013, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Detlef,
Welcome to the Europan section

-
I assume that by now you have already spotted this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sgian-dubh
I know nothing abouth these knives but, wouldn't this be an industrial made piece and not a handcraft example ? My suggestion is based on the fact that it has that CJ SCOTLAND stamp, as if it were made for export

Hi Fernando,

thank you for both, the link and your very good hint. Like you I know nothing about this knifes. Anyway, the price I have paid wasn't to high.

Regards,

Detlef

David · 1st January 2013, 06:35 PM

This is most definitely a mass produced knife. As Henk has pointed out, these are still produced in all different levels of quality since they are a traditional part of Scottish garb. This one looks to be a somewhat nicer one than many available on the market today. Since they are not really made to be used, but just as a part of the traditional dress, you don't see them as particularly high caliber forgings very often. Is the gemstone glass or actual topaz or citrine?

Sajen · 1st January 2013, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Is the gemstone glass or actual topaz or citrine?

I don't know but think it is glass.

Battara · 3rd January 2013, 03:05 AM

This is a mass produced piece with a chromed blade and a plastic scabbard and hilt. The "stone" is glass. Made for the market. Could have been made last year. The mounts are molded plastic (or possibly copper) coated with some kind of silver looking stuff (not real silver).

The old ones, even from the 1930's, have leather covered wood scabbards with brass or silver mounts (sometimes with silver marks on the back). The old hilts could be made of silver, ebony, or horn, and hand carved or hand chased.

Sorry for the bad news. I have many of these sold over the years and have owned some older true sgian dubhs (one of which I which I had kept!). And yes these are used today for wearing in the top of the stocking in formal traditional Scottish mens dress with a kilt (nothing underneath the kilt!

).

Sajen · 3rd January 2013, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

This is a mass produced piece with a chromed blade and a plastic scabbard and hilt. The "stone" is glass. Made for the market. Could have been made last year. The mounts are molded plastic (or possibly copper) coated with some kind of silver looking stuff (not real silver).

The old ones, even from the 1930's, have leather covered wood scabbards with brass or silver mounts (sometimes with silver marks on the back). The old hilts could be made of silver, ebony, or horn, and hand carved or hand chased.

Sorry for the bad news. I have many of these sold over the years and have owned some older true sgian dubhs (one of which I which I had kept!). And yes these are used today for wearing in the top of the stocking in formal traditional Scottish mens dress with a kilt (nothing underneath the kilt!

).

Hello Jose,

you don't need to say sorry. I am a friend of open words, the given amount wasn't high and it will have been another learning lesson we all familiar with. It will be a nice gift for my young son.

Regards,

Detlef

Norman McCormick · 3rd January 2013, 08:14 PM

Hi Detlef,
I'm afraid it's as Jose said, a low cost item generally purchased as an accessory to Highland dress worn at weddings etc., they are even made these days without blades or with wooden blades for dress purposes. Better ones are still made with silver fittings, bog oak or rare wood hilts and semi-precious stones and quality steel blades which are very much useable, see www.castlekeep.co.uk and www.knifemaker.co.uk for examples of modern hand made types. Sgian dhu to look out for would be 19thC and early 20thC military knives which are assignable to a specific regiments, these can be quite expensive and are highly collectable. The origin of these knives is somewhat debatable. Sgian means knife and dhu means black i.e. 'black knife' not black in colour but black as in hidden. The knife was hidden out of sight on ones person but upon entering anothers house, to show no ill will or intent, the knife would be removed from concealment and placed in the top of the sock thereby showing that the visitor carried no concealed weapon and thereby wished no harm upon his host. Women also carried knives concealed in their skirts or hidden in their clothes under the armpit, these were known as sgian aichles or armpit knives.

After the 1745 rebellion the carrying of weapons was banned in Scotland and these small utility knives, I would suggest, took on a greater importance as a symbol of 'Scottishness' bolstered by Victoria and Albert's Scottish obsession which has carried on to this day. The law here states that you cannot carry a fixed blade knife or a lockback knife but only a folding knife with a blade three inches or less and that you require to have good reason, and I mean a really good reason, even for this. A fixed blade knife with a blade of no more than 4 inches is allowed in the field for hunting e.g. stalking, although I would suspect this is rather elastic where stalking on a private estate is concerned. The exception is the Sgian Dhu as long as you are wearing the kilt, I was informed by a large police sergeant, is allowed and with sharpened steel if you want. I was also told, in the dim distant past, by person or persons unknown that when wearing kilt etc that it was legal to wear a sword and dirk as well as a sgian

very handy down Sauchiehall street on a Saturday night

Hope this has been of some help, if there is any more I can help you with just let me know.
My Regards,
Norman.

Sajen · 4th January 2013, 12:29 AM

Hi Norman,

Thank you very much for this very intersting explanation. I have done in the meanwhile some research and see now the differents between the one I have bought and the real collectable ones and have seen how expensive they can be.

Alone what you have written now was worth the money I have given for my one since now I know much more about these nice daggers and know now for what I have to look next time.

Like I have written before, this one will be a gift for my son since he is very interested to my collection.

And now I know who I can ask before I give a a big amount of money when I will buy a good one, thank you for your kind offer.

Best regards,

Detlef

fernando · 4th January 2013, 12:23 PM

Well guys,
This thread has gone as far as it could. Besides a red flag for the linking to commercial sources, we should also realize that this knife, being a mass produced 'modern' object, is not embraced by the scope of this forum section.
I guess we should now end this discussion and depart to another one.
Thank you all for the interesting input.

1st January 2013, 03:25 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,485	Sgian dubh for comment Hello, this is my first post in this section. Have get this small dirk via ebay and would like to know more about it. Is it original or a copy? How is it used (formal dress)? How old could it be? Thank you in advance, Detlef Attached Images

1st January 2013, 04:10 PM	#2
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Detlef. I like these knives a lot. I bought my first one 30 years ago in Scotland. Looks similar to yours. Personally I would say it isn't a copy. Still used when wearing a kilt. These knives are still made today and i suppose the quality will differ. Sometimes you can buy an older example.

1st January 2013, 04:25 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,485	Hello Henk, thank you and a Happy New Year! I have done in the meantime some google research and think as well that it is original. It coming from the States so it will have some age. Regards, Detlef

1st January 2013, 05:56 PM	#4
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,641	Hi Detlef, Welcome to the Europan section - I assume that by now you have already spotted this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sgian-dubh I know nothing abouth these knives but, wouldn't this be an industrial made piece and not a handcraft example ? My suggestion is based on the fact that it has that CJ SCOTLAND stamp, as if it were made for export

1st January 2013, 06:35 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,024	This is most definitely a mass produced knife. As Henk has pointed out, these are still produced in all different levels of quality since they are a traditional part of Scottish garb. This one looks to be a somewhat nicer one than many available on the market today. Since they are not really made to be used, but just as a part of the traditional dress, you don't see them as particularly high caliber forgings very often. Is the gemstone glass or actual topaz or citrine?

3rd January 2013, 03:05 AM	#8
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	This is a mass produced piece with a chromed blade and a plastic scabbard and hilt. The "stone" is glass. Made for the market. Could have been made last year. The mounts are molded plastic (or possibly copper) coated with some kind of silver looking stuff (not real silver). The old ones, even from the 1930's, have leather covered wood scabbards with brass or silver mounts (sometimes with silver marks on the back). The old hilts could be made of silver, ebony, or horn, and hand carved or hand chased. Sorry for the bad news. I have many of these sold over the years and have owned some older true sgian dubhs (one of which I which I had kept!). And yes these are used today for wearing in the top of the stocking in formal traditional Scottish mens dress with a kilt (nothing underneath the kilt! ).

3rd January 2013, 08:14 PM	#10
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi Detlef, I'm afraid it's as Jose said, a low cost item generally purchased as an accessory to Highland dress worn at weddings etc., they are even made these days without blades or with wooden blades for dress purposes. Better ones are still made with silver fittings, bog oak or rare wood hilts and semi-precious stones and quality steel blades which are very much useable, see www.castlekeep.co.uk and www.knifemaker.co.uk for examples of modern hand made types. Sgian dhu to look out for would be 19thC and early 20thC military knives which are assignable to a specific regiments, these can be quite expensive and are highly collectable. The origin of these knives is somewhat debatable. Sgian means knife and dhu means black i.e. 'black knife' not black in colour but black as in hidden. The knife was hidden out of sight on ones person but upon entering anothers house, to show no ill will or intent, the knife would be removed from concealment and placed in the top of the sock thereby showing that the visitor carried no concealed weapon and thereby wished no harm upon his host. Women also carried knives concealed in their skirts or hidden in their clothes under the armpit, these were known as sgian aichles or armpit knives. After the 1745 rebellion the carrying of weapons was banned in Scotland and these small utility knives, I would suggest, took on a greater importance as a symbol of 'Scottishness' bolstered by Victoria and Albert's Scottish obsession which has carried on to this day. The law here states that you cannot carry a fixed blade knife or a lockback knife but only a folding knife with a blade three inches or less and that you require to have good reason, and I mean a really good reason, even for this. A fixed blade knife with a blade of no more than 4 inches is allowed in the field for hunting e.g. stalking, although I would suspect this is rather elastic where stalking on a private estate is concerned. The exception is the Sgian Dhu as long as you are wearing the kilt, I was informed by a large police sergeant, is allowed and with sharpened steel if you want. I was also told, in the dim distant past, by person or persons unknown that when wearing kilt etc that it was legal to wear a sword and dirk as well as a sgian very handy down Sauchiehall street on a Saturday night Hope this has been of some help, if there is any more I can help you with just let me know. My Regards, Norman.

4th January 2013, 12:29 AM	#11
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,485	Hi Norman, Thank you very much for this very intersting explanation. I have done in the meanwhile some research and see now the differents between the one I have bought and the real collectable ones and have seen how expensive they can be. Alone what you have written now was worth the money I have given for my one since now I know much more about these nice daggers and know now for what I have to look next time. Like I have written before, this one will be a gift for my son since he is very interested to my collection. And now I know who I can ask before I give a a big amount of money when I will buy a good one, thank you for your kind offer. Best regards, Detlef

4th January 2013, 12:23 PM	#12
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,641	Well guys, This thread has gone as far as it could. Besides a red flag for the linking to commercial sources, we should also realize that this knife, being a mass produced 'modern' object, is not embraced by the scope of this forum section. I guess we should now end this discussion and depart to another one. Thank you all for the interesting input.