Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 4th May 2020, 04:52 PM   #1
rickystl
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: St. Louis, MO area.
Posts: 1,508
Default Algerian Long Gun

Here is a new addition to the family. I got this at auction last month.

LOCK: The lock is a locally made variant of the traditional French style flintlock. Some simple decoration on the lock plate and hammer. Lock is in working order, but stiff. Have not had the lock off yet. Probably full of dirt and cobwebs LOL But I'll clean/tune it to work much better. And take before and after photos.
STOCK: The stock is in better condition than the photos show. Worn, but still solid with no cracks or damage. There is a small amount of stock decoration including worn carving on the upper wrist area (forgot to photo this). There is a broken section of wood ramrod in the lower end of the hole/groove which I will remove after I take the barrel off for cleaning. It appears there was some type of simple butt plate attached with two nails originally. I do have a well (yellowed) aged bone butt plate from another Algerian parts gun I could use. Or a flat iron piece from a similar Moroccan gun. We'll see. The stock forend travels only about 2/3-3/4 the length to the muzzle. Typical with Algerian long guns.
BARREL: The barrel is also typical Algerian. Tapered octagon, 46" long, and about .65 caliber. Don't see any marks on it. The rear sight is missing, but I have an original spare. The rear barrel band became un-soldered. But that will be an easy fix. The wood ramrod is missing, but that's another easy fix.

All together, this should be any easy project. Just a bunch of small items to restore. Nothing major.

The one interesting aspect is the butt style. Not the typical Algerian fishtail you usually see with the large miquelet lock. I've seen this butt stock style before. But can't immediately place it. Hmmmm. I'll have to check my reference material. (Should have already done that I guess).

Anyway, picture heavy. Any comments welcome.

Rick
Attached Images
      
rickystl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th May 2020, 04:53 PM   #2
rickystl
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: St. Louis, MO area.
Posts: 1,508
Default

MORE PICS......
Attached Images
      
rickystl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th May 2020, 04:54 PM   #3
rickystl
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: St. Louis, MO area.
Posts: 1,508
Default

LAST ONES.......
Attached Images
  
rickystl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th May 2020, 10:00 PM   #4
kahnjar1
Member
 
kahnjar1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND
Posts: 2,533
Default

Not Algerian IMHO. The stock shape is all wrong. More like a Spanish style stock, and the lock engraving does not look North African either.
Nice piece either way.
Stu
kahnjar1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th May 2020, 02:44 AM   #5
Oliver Pinchot
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 376
Default

It's a variant of the Taouzilt form. Flintlock mechanism isn't particularly common but after the British negotiated virtually free trade with the Moroccan sultan in the 1840s, the type became more available. Nice carving.

Last edited by Oliver Pinchot : 5th May 2020 at 04:24 AM.
Oliver Pinchot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th May 2020, 04:59 AM   #6
kahnjar1
Member
 
kahnjar1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND
Posts: 2,533
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot
It's a variant of the Taouzilt form. Flintlock mechanism isn't particularly common but after the British negotiated virtually free trade with the Moroccan sultan in the 1840s, the type became more available. Nice carving.

Thanks for the clarification Oliver. So this gun is Moroccan rather than Algerian?
Stu
kahnjar1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th May 2020, 06:21 AM   #7
corrado26
Member
 
corrado26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Black Forest, Germany
Posts: 832
Default

The lock is certainly not of French style but a British Brown Bess lock that has been decorated
corrado26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th May 2020, 04:13 AM   #8
Philip
Member
 
Philip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: California
Posts: 650
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by corrado26
The lock is certainly not of French style but a British Brown Bess lock that has been decorated


Agreed, but I think the profile of the tail end of the lockplate is a bit too pointed for a Brown Bess lock. However, it could have well been reshaped when it was decorated and adapted for installation on this gun.
Philip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th May 2020, 07:24 AM   #9
Kubur
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,872
Default

Hi Rick,
Another nice gun!
I agree with you, this one is not Algerian nor Moroccan...
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th May 2020, 09:24 AM   #10
Norman McCormick
Member
 
Norman McCormick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,303
Default

Hi Rick,
Just a thought, I have no idea re the lock and barrel but the stock appears to me to be circa 17thC European. Here is a photo of my European snaphaunce circa 1700 albeit with probably a later lock but the similarities are there. Both have holes where sling mounts would be although yours now has side rings and the butt has the same type of holes where a butt plate would have been attached these together with the overall shape and carving do suggest to me a European manufacture for the stock. I also think originally the stock would have housed a shorter barrel probably not much longer than the the stock itself.
Hope you are keeping well in these unusual times.
My Regards,
Norman.
Attached Images
 
Norman McCormick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th May 2020, 01:06 PM   #11
Norman McCormick
Member
 
Norman McCormick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,303
Default

Butt end comparison if you'll pardon the phraseology.
Regards,
Norman.
Attached Images
  
Norman McCormick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th May 2020, 01:13 PM   #12
Norman McCormick
Member
 
Norman McCormick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,303
Default

An explanation of the tack holes from our friend Michael.

Butt plates did not normally appear before the 1580's on European military muskets, and they were made of very thin hammered iron attached not by nails but by tacks, with small, irregularly shaped but mostly rectangular heads.

Attached are details of a very fine German (Suhl) matchlock musket, ca. 1590-1600, overall length 1.67 m, weight 8.4 kgs, preserved in as-new condition; author's collection.

Only during the first half of the 18th c., butt plates got thicker and more figured, made of either iron or brass - depending on the material employed for the rest of the mounts.


Best,
Michael
Attached Images

Matchlock is offline
Norman McCormick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th May 2020, 03:53 PM   #13
Kubur
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,872
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norman McCormick
Butt end comparison if you'll pardon the phraseology.
Regards,
Norman.


Nice butts!
I just want to add that most of the Moroccan long guns are late copies of English and Dutch snaphaunce muskets with large downward butts. But I think this one is from another part of the world..
Attached Images
 
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th May 2020, 03:55 PM   #14
rickystl
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: St. Louis, MO area.
Posts: 1,508
Default

Hi Stu

Thanks for you comments. I still believe this gun has an Algerian origin. Will elaborate further below.

Thanks Oliver. Yes, you can see a bit of Taouzilt influence in the butt stock. But the smaller size of the slight fishtail leads me back to Algerian again.

Hi Coradoand Philip: What I meant by "French" was the mechanics of the lock versus the style. I should have clarified that. My Bad. Indeed the lock style is a rough, locally made copy of the British 3rd Model Brown Bess lock, which pattern was extensively copied on Afghan guns, and on occasion in other regions. To me, the engraving on the lock looks like a generic Balkan style. See detached lock below.....

Rick
rickystl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th May 2020, 04:16 PM   #15
rickystl
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: St. Louis, MO area.
Posts: 1,508
Default

Hi Norman

I remember this gun of yours very well, with it's rare Scottish snaphaunce lock and trigger. Notice how similar the butt stock shape is to my gun, with it's thumb groove set further to the rear in the wrist area.
And I very much agree with you ref butt plates. It seems that most of the Ottoman/Eastern stock styles originated from European forms from the 17th Century or earlier. Amazing how long that persisted.
I've been doing well. Been working from home since March 18. And it appears that will continue at least through May. Thank goodness the shooting range is open. LOL Hope you are doing well also.

Hi Kubur !! That photo looks like he is aiming a percussion shotgun.

Rick
rickystl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th May 2020, 04:26 PM   #16
rickystl
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: St. Louis, MO area.
Posts: 1,508
Default

Here are some additional picks of the trigger guard and the now well worn carving on the wrist area. As well, the detached lock.
The lock is a somewhat rough assembly. But should clean up well. It's in working order but in need of some serious cleaning and tuning. Will probably have to replace the mainspring screw.
will add more comments below.....

Rick
Attached Images
      
rickystl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th May 2020, 03:16 PM   #17
rickystl
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: St. Louis, MO area.
Posts: 1,508
Default

OK. Some further thoughts on this gun.......

TRIGGER GUARD: This appears to be an obvious later addition. With the very slight traces of later red rust and the use of 20th Century flat wood screws to attach it to the stock. Also, the inletting to the wood was crudely done. Also the head of the barrel tang screw entering the bottom of the stock (normal) is too close to the inside of the trigger guard to be removed without removing the guard itself. Further evidence that the guard itself was an after-thought.
I'm confident this gun was originally made without a trigger guard, which would be the norm for Algerian long guns (as well as others). But I have seen this before where some collector/hobbyist/etc., not familiar with these guns, thinks the trigger guard is missing, and adds one from another old gun.
STOCK: Notice the hole in the middle of the wrist area for a sling/ring type attachment. (Also on the stock that Norman posted above). This hole, at this location on the rear of the stock shows up on every Algerian long gun I have seen. A small, but possibly significant styling cue.
While the forend of the stock "looks" like it was cut back from the muzzle end, there is no evidence of this. This so called 3/4 length stock shows up on every Algerian long gun I have seen. (See photo below). And the exposed portion of the barrel towards the muzzle has the exact same patina around the entire circumference of the barrel. There is no evidence there was ever a portion of wood on the bottom of the barrel in this area.
Although less pronounced, the small fishtail at the end of the butt stock is there. The only real difference with this gun compared to others is the more downward curve of the butt stock versus straight as on most Algerian guns.
BARREL: This octagon barrel with it's fast taper all the way to the muzzle is exactly the same as on most every other Algerian long gun I have seen (two I remember had octagon-to-round barrels).

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that this gun has more features that point to an Algerian origin, than not. Of course, additional comments most welcomed. And thanks for your viewing. The gun certainly has that "tribal" look to me. LOL

Rick
rickystl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th May 2020, 03:22 PM   #18
rickystl
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: St. Louis, MO area.
Posts: 1,508
Default

Here is another Algerian long gun from my collection. Although with the more commonly seen miquelet lock. But notice the so called 3/4 length forend of the stock. If you view these guns on any of Elgood's or Tirri's reference books, or on Internet searches you will see the stock style.

Rick
Attached Images
 
rickystl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th May 2020, 04:31 PM   #19
Kubur
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,872
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickystl
Here is another Algerian long gun from my collection. Although with the more commonly seen miquelet lock. But notice the so called 3/4 length forend of the stock. If you view these guns on any of Elgood's or Tirri's reference books, or on Internet searches you will see the stock style.

Rick


Here the little brother, complete thanks to your generous donation, thanks Rick

Attached Images
 
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th May 2020, 07:50 PM   #20
kahnjar1
Member
 
kahnjar1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND
Posts: 2,533
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
Nice butts!
I just want to add that most of the Moroccan long guns are late copies of English and Dutch snaphaunce muskets with large downward butts. But I think this one is from another part of the world..

Hi Kubur,
The gun shown in your photo at #13 above, looks to be a pinfire, as the hammer noses overlap the barrels at the breech.(They are not cocked either so it is obviously a posed pic). Certainly NOT a percussion gun. Likely to be of French manufacture. Though it is hard to tell from your photo, the action looks to be what is called Lefauchaux. The gun opens by a FORWARD facing lever under the action. I doubt that the user would have found it easy to get suitable cartridges!
Stu

Last edited by kahnjar1 : 8th May 2020 at 05:47 AM.
kahnjar1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th May 2020, 09:33 PM   #21
qusko
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 20
Default

Hi Rick,

Additional examples I have found attached.

I tend to say it's Algerian musket, but in some places it was also referred as Moroccan.

Please check the butt style in the complete examples. It has a little bit wider butt plate. Maybe it's bone, but also, in some examples, it might be wood.
Attached Images
    
qusko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th May 2020, 04:23 PM   #22
Kubur
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,872
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by qusko
Hi Rick,
Please check the butt style in the complete examples. It has a little bit wider butt plate. Maybe it's bone, but also, in some examples, it might be wood.


Two guns in the middle are from Tunisia.
But Rick's gun is not from Tunisia. IMHO
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th May 2020, 08:26 PM   #23
rickystl
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: St. Louis, MO area.
Posts: 1,508
Default

Hi Kubur

I remember your Algerian gun very well. A very good example. And glad I could help with the "part" LOL

Hi Gusko

Thank you so much for those photos. Those are the ones I was looking for. The Algerian looking guns with flintlocks versus the more common miquelet locks.
Notice too the most of the flintlocks are flat faced. That, and the general style of lock looks similar on all. Although the one has a slightly round faced like like mine. Also, notice the wood stock similarities with all. In fact, the last photo butt stock shape is almost a clone of mine.

I can certainly see where some collectors might refer to these guns as either Moroccan or Algerian style guns. In fact, I'm not 100% sure myself. LOL
Of course with the cross of these two cultures it can be confusing at times.
Thanks again Gusko for the photos. And thank you all for your comments.

Rick
rickystl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th May 2020, 09:22 PM   #24
kahnjar1
Member
 
kahnjar1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND
Posts: 2,533
Default Please magnify this mark

Hi Rick,
Can you please show a clear impression of this mark.
Regards Stu
Attached Images
 
kahnjar1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th May 2020, 03:40 PM   #25
rickystl
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: St. Louis, MO area.
Posts: 1,508
Default

Hi Stu

Have not cleaned the lock up yet. But cleaned the area around the mark. It's very tiny. Took the best pic I could. Looks like a "W" with a tiny crown above it.

Rick
Attached Images
 
rickystl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th May 2020, 07:09 PM   #26
Fernando K
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 584
Default

Hello

The letter W crowned appears on a Belgian weapon, imitation of the Tower, existing in a Museum and which served to make Fabricaciones Militartes (Argentina) reproduce the flintlock

Affectionately
Fernando K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th May 2020, 07:21 PM   #27
Fernando K
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 584
Default

Lock
Attached Images
 
Fernando K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th May 2020, 08:43 PM   #28
kahnjar1
Member
 
kahnjar1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND
Posts: 2,533
Default

Thanks for posting the mark. IMHO it is safe to say that this lock is not a North African made item, but is European. The mark on your lock, and that shown by Fernando is identical in style and placement. It is also too good in quality and style to be a local stamp. Note that in both cases the W has a thicker stroke on the left than on the right. If the stamp was local I do not think that a copy would have the same detail. Copies are usually rather basic.
So what do you have? I believe a gun dressed (maybe) in North Africa, but with a Spanish style/European stock and lock.
Next thing to check would be the barrel when you remove it, to see if there are any marks underneath.........
The plot thickens!!
Regards Stu
kahnjar1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th May 2020, 11:35 PM   #29
Fernando K
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 584
Default

Belgian lock
Attached Images
 
Fernando K is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 02:46 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.