Garuda Kris

kai · 13th March 2022, 04:09 PM

Hello Ian,

Quote:

In my earlier comment, I misidentified the largest one on the left as Maranao--it more closely resembles Maguindanao work in the elephant trunk area (per Robert Cato).

Thanks for your clarification - I was already wondering whether you had mixed things up...

Regards,
Kai

Ian · 13th March 2022, 06:14 PM

Just getting old, kai. I intended to write Maguindanao originally, but it came out Maranao. Brain and fingers not in sync.

David · 13th March 2022, 10:37 PM

Can someone explain to me how or why this hilt form has become associated with Garuda. I'm having a hard time seeing it.

kai · 13th March 2022, 11:59 PM

Hello David,

As mentioned, this is believed to have evolved from the stylised figural hilts.

I believe the notion got stuck from old western keris literature speculating on a possible relationship of these "bird-like" hilts and Garuda. Among a bunch of problems with this assumption, this is missing the obvious problem that Garuda is not especially favoured by shivaistic followers/rites/symbolism...

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 14th March 2022, 12:38 AM

Kai, I've noted this mention of "copper alloy".

I do not understand what is meant by this.

With modern technology, yes, we can alloy ferric material with copper.

We can alloy copper with other materials too, but none of these alloys could serve adequately as the blade of a combat weapon.

Even the copper/ferric alloys are not really suitable for weapon use.

I do not know of the use of copper in traditional smithing technology, not in Maritime SE Asia, and in fact, not anywhere in the world.

Are you able to clarify exactly this term "copper alloy" ?

Battara · 14th March 2022, 01:44 AM

I think Alan that Albert is referring to the entire blade being of some copper alloy like bronze or brass - basically a ceremonial and I doubt made for battle. Might explain the small size of the blade and the fact that the front of the ganga is missing the animal form (ie. stylized eagle or elephant).

Please correct me if I am wrong Albert. Otherwise, I'm with Alan on this then.

kino · 14th March 2022, 10:13 PM

Jose, to answer your question, Yes, copper + tin or copper + zinc alloys.
I’m really not sure what the blade composition is other than having copper content. Nothing mentioned about being a battle blade.

SanibelSwassa · 15th March 2022, 12:45 AM

For a discussion point of reference I’ll post two pictures of archaic kris that might help in the orientation of perspective for this hilt form. From there maybe we can delve into other symbolic references and how their origins might point in the direction of Garuda. Of course other possible interpretations for discussion would be seriously appreciated.

15th March 2022, 12:45 AM	#8
SanibelSwassa Member Join Date: Mar 2020 Location: Sanibel Florida Posts: 104	For a discussion point of reference I’ll post two pictures of archaic kris that might help in the orientation of perspective for this hilt form. From there maybe we can delve into other symbolic references and how their origins might point in the direction of Garuda. Of course other possible interpretations for discussion would be seriously appreciated. Attached Images

13th March 2022, 06:14 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,048	Just getting old, kai. I intended to write Maguindanao originally, but it came out Maranao. Brain and fingers not in sync.

13th March 2022, 10:37 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,047	Can someone explain to me how or why this hilt form has become associated with Garuda. I'm having a hard time seeing it.

13th March 2022, 11:59 PM	#4
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,223	Hello David, As mentioned, this is believed to have evolved from the stylised figural hilts. I believe the notion got stuck from old western keris literature speculating on a possible relationship of these "bird-like" hilts and Garuda. Among a bunch of problems with this assumption, this is missing the obvious problem that Garuda is not especially favoured by shivaistic followers/rites/symbolism... Regards, Kai

14th March 2022, 12:38 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,738	Kai, I've noted this mention of "copper alloy". I do not understand what is meant by this. With modern technology, yes, we can alloy ferric material with copper. We can alloy copper with other materials too, but none of these alloys could serve adequately as the blade of a combat weapon. Even the copper/ferric alloys are not really suitable for weapon use. I do not know of the use of copper in traditional smithing technology, not in Maritime SE Asia, and in fact, not anywhere in the world. Are you able to clarify exactly this term "copper alloy" ?

14th March 2022, 01:44 AM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,141	I think Alan that Albert is referring to the entire blade being of some copper alloy like bronze or brass - basically a ceremonial and I doubt made for battle. Might explain the small size of the blade and the fact that the front of the ganga is missing the animal form (ie. stylized eagle or elephant). Please correct me if I am wrong Albert. Otherwise, I'm with Alan on this then.

14th March 2022, 10:13 PM	#7
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 981	Jose, to answer your question, Yes, copper + tin or copper + zinc alloys. I’m really not sure what the blade composition is other than having copper content. Nothing mentioned about being a battle blade.