Breech loading chamber for a cannon 16th century

Marcus den toom · 25th August 2013, 09:05 PM

At the advice of Fernando i am starting a new topic on my previously announced new purchase, the breechloading chamber from a cannon.

As a young collector i have to scout for any opportunity for something great to roll into my direction. The first time i had such a stroke of luck was when i bought a German wheel lock covered with rust and dirt. After cleaning there where several marks on the lockplate placing it to Nurmberg 1625. After this i bought a breechloading chamber for a rifle. If this was not fun enough, some months later i bought a book in which the original rifle was documented with a twin of the breechchamber i got.

All good and fun, but this doesn't happen every week... so my search for some affordable treasure takes me trough piles of unaffordable treasure (so if you got a box full of non confederate money and you want to convert it to something nice, call me

)
Coming to my latest purchase and towards the end of this story that is getting way out of hand... A Breech chamber for a 16 century cannon (probably a swifelgun). Found in the Sea of cortez, this item is heavily corroded. It measures 20 cm (8 inch) in lenght and seeing as it lay on the seafloor for probably 400 years, it looks respectably well.

If anyone could provide additional information or give me some advice on how to clean this or not to clean this but preserve etc.. well you know, just start typing

fernando · 25th August 2013, 10:40 PM

An interestic piece, as already stated.
I wonder whether you have strong evidence that it was found in the place you mention. Not subtracting at all its importance if it was found somewhere else; it's just that selling sources often like to 'romanticize' the provenance of (these) things to ensure their top price.
Pity that one of our forum 'permanent specialists' has been (and will be) seriously ill for a long while, but i trust that other knowledged members pop in with their opinion.

Meanwhile, would you like to have a look in here:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=chamber

Marcus den toom · 26th August 2013, 09:00 AM

It was sold in combination with all other kinds of items. Those items didn't sell though, so if you are interested i know where too find you a martar cannon (with the breech blown out), 3 spurs from 16th century and some oother nice things

I will ask the auction house to provide documents to verify the authenticity of the piece.

And i already read the whole thread back and forth

My good friend Bolek pointed this thread to me while he is constructing my breechloading pistol.

Sadly indeed, but hopefullly Matchlock will be back with us.. i never had the pleasure of talking to him, but seeing the amount of information he gives,i would very much like to meet him

Marcus den toom · 9th September 2013, 01:10 PM

Today my package arrived with the breech chamber.
It does look very nice, hopefully it will spark a lifely conversation on the forum.

Matchlock · 5th October 2013, 03:39 PM

Hi Marcus,

Congratulations on acquiring that nice wrought-iron detachable breech that has been preserved in perfectly uncleaned original condition. Please do keep it as it is.

Wrought-iron breech-loading pieces of cannon with interchangeable chambers/breeches have been made since at least the mid-15th c., thus continuing being kept in use for about 100 years, almost without any significant formal or stylistic development that would be noticeable and allow a closer dating.
From the later part of their working life, we have records thru the samples found in the wreck of the Mary Rose that sunk in 1545.

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 5th December 2013, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus den toom

At the advice of Fernando i am starting a new topic on my previously announced new purchase, the breechloading chamber from a cannon.

As a young collector i have to scout for any opportunity for something great to roll into my direction. The first time i had such a stroke of luck was when i bought a German wheel lock covered with rust and dirt. After cleaning there where several marks on the lockplate placing it to Nurmberg 1625. After this i bought a breechloading chamber for a rifle. If this was not fun enough, some months later i bought a book in which the original rifle was documented with a twin of the breechchamber i got.

All good and fun, but this doesn't happen every week... so my search for some affordable treasure takes me trough piles of unaffordable treasure (so if you got a box full of non confederate money and you want to convert it to something nice, call me

)
Coming to my latest purchase and towards the end of this story that is getting way out of hand... A Breech chamber for a 16 century cannon (probably a swifelgun). Found in the Sea of cortez, this item is heavily corroded. It measures 20 cm (8 inch) in lenght and seeing as it lay on the seafloor for probably 400 years, it looks respectably well.

If anyone could provide additional information or give me some advice on how to clean this or not to clean this but preserve etc.. well you know, just start typing

Hi Marcus,

Once more I must say that I like that ca. 1540 mug-shaped interchangeable breech of yours a whole lot!
For more than 20 years I had a similar one, only slender and about 100 years earlier, ca. 1440, which is extremely early for breechloaders; it now is in 'Nando's collection!

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...oading+chamber

Best,
Michael

Marcus den toom · 5th December 2013, 03:51 PM

Hi Michael,

Thank you very much for the information, i also bought a iron cannonbal which fits the dimensions of this breech chamber, but i doubt that the cannonbal is nearly as old as the chamber (good enough for presentational purposes though).

I will post a other neat item shortly

Matchlock · 5th December 2013, 04:12 PM

Hi Marcus,

Not that any ball was originally part of a breechloading chamber ...

As I have shown in my thread and demonstrated by photos of a ca. 1480-1500 Late-Gothic chamber dug up still loaded only with powder and a wooden plug, the ball was separately shoved in at the rear of the barrel, at the beginning of the breech recess, before the powder chamber/breech was inserted.

Best,
Michael

Marcus den toom · 5th December 2013, 05:11 PM

Ingineus, did they do this (the wooden plug) to make a solid seal for the chamber which would still be less stressfull than a iron seal? Or?

sorry if you are already told this in the thread, i will read it soon (Dutch holiday is tonight so

)

Matchlock · 5th December 2013, 05:24 PM

I guess the breech plug was mainly there in order to prevent the fine meal powder from falling out, and to preserve it from moisture.

The thread I told about this fact is here:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7364

Best,
m

fernando · 5th December 2013, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

I guess the breech plug was mainly there in order to prevent the fine meal powder from falling out, and to preserve it from moisture...

Sure thing, no guess, i would add !
Have i heard that such plugging was also made of wax ?

Matchlock · 5th December 2013, 06:36 PM

Wax?
For sealing interchangeable iron 'patrons' for long guns and hand firearms, possibly ... we have no records of such a surviving piece though.

What we do know for sure, however, is that in early-19th service manuals (by Beroaldo Bianchini et al.), the soldier was ordered to keep the muzzle of his loaded long gun (flintlock musket) closed by either a wooden 'anti-rain' plug (Old German Regenpfropfen) fitted with a lead cover and either cloth or leather side straps (I do keep some 20 original muzzle plugs of 16th to 19th c. date in my collection).
Early-17th c. musketeers on watch used to seal and tighten the closed covers of the primed pans of their matchlock muskets by tallow (Old German Unschlitt) against both moisture and fine priming powder that was literally everywhere on their clothes ...

The huntsman of the muzzle-loading era, on the other hand, used to seal the muzzle of his gun by a hard wax plug - which of course had to be carefully removed before each shot, in order to prevent the barrel from horribly bulging or bursting ...!!!

Best,
Michl

Marcus den toom · 5th December 2013, 08:10 PM

Dudley Pope's Guns has a picture on page 34 with the cannonbal inside the breechblock.
Complete (beeing a powder load plus ball) breechplugs would be more efficient.
Both methods would most likely work fine.

Matchlock · 5th December 2013, 09:08 PM

I am definitely sad for seeing this posted because the drawing is based on mere fantasy and wrong imagination. Dudley Pope alas knew nothing about early pieces ...
The book Guns is still worth buying but only because of the good photos.

Beware of modern drawings, they are highly dangerous and surely need both expert interpretation and authoritative judgement. That's why I strongly plead for mainly relying on photos. There is a lot of rubbish in many books. Books as such are in no way authoritative.

Best,
Michael

Marcus den toom · 6th December 2013, 08:18 AM

Not a complete waste though, we gained a valuable advise.

The only way to prove the Dudley claim is when they uncover a breech chamber with the cannonball and preferably the powder load as well neatly tugged away in this chamber.

fernando · 5th January 2014, 06:36 PM

Back to the sealing issue ...
After reviewing this issue with some source, i would give a touch up to my previous approach

.
Wooden plugs were used to close the chamber mouth and wax was used to seal such plugs ... and also to seal the touch hole.

25th August 2013, 09:05 PM	#1
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 493	Breech loading chamber for a cannon 16th century At the advice of Fernando i am starting a new topic on my previously announced new purchase, the breechloading chamber from a cannon. As a young collector i have to scout for any opportunity for something great to roll into my direction. The first time i had such a stroke of luck was when i bought a German wheel lock covered with rust and dirt. After cleaning there where several marks on the lockplate placing it to Nurmberg 1625. After this i bought a breechloading chamber for a rifle. If this was not fun enough, some months later i bought a book in which the original rifle was documented with a twin of the breechchamber i got. All good and fun, but this doesn't happen every week... so my search for some affordable treasure takes me trough piles of unaffordable treasure (so if you got a box full of non confederate money and you want to convert it to something nice, call me ) Coming to my latest purchase and towards the end of this story that is getting way out of hand... A Breech chamber for a 16 century cannon (probably a swifelgun). Found in the Sea of cortez, this item is heavily corroded. It measures 20 cm (8 inch) in lenght and seeing as it lay on the seafloor for probably 400 years, it looks respectably well. If anyone could provide additional information or give me some advice on how to clean this or not to clean this but preserve etc.. well you know, just start typing

5th December 2013, 04:12 PM	#8
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Marcus, Not that any ball was originally part of a breechloading chamber ... As I have shown in my thread and demonstrated by photos of a ca. 1480-1500 Late-Gothic chamber dug up still loaded only with powder and a wooden plug, the ball was separately shoved in at the rear of the barrel, at the beginning of the breech recess, before the powder chamber/breech was inserted. Best, Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 5th December 2013 at 04:31 PM.

5th December 2013, 06:36 PM	#12
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Wax? For sealing interchangeable iron 'patrons' for long guns and hand firearms, possibly ... we have no records of such a surviving piece though. What we do know for sure, however, is that in early-19th service manuals (by Beroaldo Bianchini et al.), the soldier was ordered to keep the muzzle of his loaded long gun (flintlock musket) closed by either a wooden 'anti-rain' plug (Old German Regenpfropfen) fitted with a lead cover and either cloth or leather side straps (I do keep some 20 original muzzle plugs of 16th to 19th c. date in my collection). Early-17th c. musketeers on watch used to seal and tighten the closed covers of the primed pans of their matchlock muskets by tallow (Old German Unschlitt) against both moisture and fine priming powder that was literally everywhere on their clothes ... The huntsman of the muzzle-loading era, on the other hand, used to seal the muzzle of his gun by a hard wax plug - which of course had to be carefully removed before each shot, in order to prevent the barrel from horribly bulging or bursting ...!!! Best, Michl Last edited by Matchlock; 5th December 2013 at 07:08 PM.

25th August 2013, 10:40 PM	#2
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,637	An interestic piece, as already stated. I wonder whether you have strong evidence that it was found in the place you mention. Not subtracting at all its importance if it was found somewhere else; it's just that selling sources often like to 'romanticize' the provenance of (these) things to ensure their top price. Pity that one of our forum 'permanent specialists' has been (and will be) seriously ill for a long while, but i trust that other knowledged members pop in with their opinion. Meanwhile, would you like to have a look in here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=chamber

26th August 2013, 09:00 AM	#3
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 493	It was sold in combination with all other kinds of items. Those items didn't sell though, so if you are interested i know where too find you a martar cannon (with the breech blown out), 3 spurs from 16th century and some oother nice things I will ask the auction house to provide documents to verify the authenticity of the piece. And i already read the whole thread back and forth My good friend Bolek pointed this thread to me while he is constructing my breechloading pistol. Sadly indeed, but hopefullly Matchlock will be back with us.. i never had the pleasure of talking to him, but seeing the amount of information he gives,i would very much like to meet him

9th September 2013, 01:10 PM	#4
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 493	Today my package arrived with the breech chamber. It does look very nice, hopefully it will spark a lifely conversation on the forum.

5th October 2013, 03:39 PM	#5
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Marcus, Congratulations on acquiring that nice wrought-iron detachable breech that has been preserved in perfectly uncleaned original condition. Please do keep it as it is. Wrought-iron breech-loading pieces of cannon with interchangeable chambers/breeches have been made since at least the mid-15th c., thus continuing being kept in use for about 100 years, almost without any significant formal or stylistic development that would be noticeable and allow a closer dating. From the later part of their working life, we have records thru the samples found in the wreck of the Mary Rose that sunk in 1545. Best, Michael

5th December 2013, 03:51 PM	#7
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 493	Hi Michael, Thank you very much for the information, i also bought a iron cannonbal which fits the dimensions of this breech chamber, but i doubt that the cannonbal is nearly as old as the chamber (good enough for presentational purposes though). I will post a other neat item shortly

5th December 2013, 05:11 PM	#9
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 493	Ingineus, did they do this (the wooden plug) to make a solid seal for the chamber which would still be less stressfull than a iron seal? Or? sorry if you are already told this in the thread, i will read it soon (Dutch holiday is tonight so )

5th December 2013, 05:24 PM	#10
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	I guess the breech plug was mainly there in order to prevent the fine meal powder from falling out, and to preserve it from moisture. The thread I told about this fact is here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7364 Best, m

5th December 2013, 08:10 PM	#13
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 493	Dudley Pope's Guns has a picture on page 34 with the cannonbal inside the breechblock. Complete (beeing a powder load plus ball) breechplugs would be more efficient. Both methods would most likely work fine.

5th December 2013, 09:08 PM	#14
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	I am definitely sad for seeing this posted because the drawing is based on mere fantasy and wrong imagination. Dudley Pope alas knew nothing about early pieces ... The book Guns is still worth buying but only because of the good photos. Beware of modern drawings, they are highly dangerous and surely need both expert interpretation and authoritative judgement. That's why I strongly plead for mainly relying on photos. There is a lot of rubbish in many books. Books as such are in no way authoritative. Best, Michael

6th December 2013, 08:18 AM	#15
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 493	Not a complete waste though, we gained a valuable advise. The only way to prove the Dudley claim is when they uncover a breech chamber with the cannonball and preferably the powder load as well neatly tugged away in this chamber.

5th January 2014, 06:36 PM	#16
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,637	Back to the sealing issue ... After reviewing this issue with some source, i would give a touch up to my previous approach . Wooden plugs were used to close the chamber mouth and wax was used to seal such plugs ... and also to seal the touch hole.