French 1882 Sabre

[neekee]

Hi all ~

I know this is by no means a rare sword, but I'm really curious to know more about it, and I was wondering if you experts would have anything to say about that one.

There are 3 crosses carved on the grip. Do you think it means what I think it means ? :x

The hand engravings read "Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Châtellerault / Février 1904, Off-er d'Inf-rie M-le 1882"

The 3 poinçons are, I think, G G and C

The blade is sharpened just on one side. You can see it experienced intensive sharpening on more than one occasion, I'd say.

I'm kind of curious about metals and forging methods in general, so I'll ask ...

Do you know what metal is the whole pommel/guard/quillon made of ? Doesn't rust at all.

Do you know what the blade is made of ? It looks chromed, which surprises me for a military weapon of that time which apparently was used in combat.

Any tips on taking care of it ?

Thanks in advance. Hope you enjoy the pics.

[fernando]

Bonjour neekee
I am the contrary to an expert but ...

The hilt is made of white brass, or German silver or, as i think you call it, metal argentee, same as used in cutlery.
The steel blade has a chromed finish because, at this stage (1882-1904), swords were no longer for combat, but for cerimonial uniforms. If it has been frequently sharpened, as you notice, must have been for the amusement of a later owner that not for going into battle.
The inspector ponçons you may identify them if you browse the Net for the Châtelerault site or other written publications .
I guess the three crosses are just ... three crosses; a mark like any other mark

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by neekee

Hi all ~

I know this is by no means a rare sword, but I'm really curious to know more about it, and I was wondering if you experts would have anything to say about that one.

There are 3 crosses carved on the grip. Do you think it means what I think it means ? :x

The hand engravings read "Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Châtellerault / Février 1904, Off-er d'Inf-rie M-le 1882"

The 3 poinçons are, I think, G G and C

The blade is sharpened just on one side. You can see it experienced intensive sharpening on more than one occasion, I'd say.

I'm kind of curious about metals and forging methods in general, so I'll ask ...

Do you know what metal is the whole pommel/guard/quillon made of ? Doesn't rust at all.

Do you know what the blade is made of ? It looks chromed, which surprises me for a military weapon of that time which apparently was used in combat.

Any tips on taking care of it ?

Thanks in advance. Hope you enjoy the pics.

Salaams neekee ~ Well I'm no expert but I was intrigued by the 3 crosses. They would seem to me to be indicating crossed swords..thus perhaps duels? It can be seen that French Duels took place well into the 1900s and even up to the late 60s;

The last duel in France took place in 1967 when Gaston Defferre insulted René Ribière (fr) at the French parliament and was subsequently challenged to a duel fought with swords. René Ribière lost the duel, having been wounded twice. He escaped relatively uninjured, however.

(I speak here only of the popularity in France as in other countries it died out a lot earlier and generally about the WW1 period. I also restrict my small note to sword fencing duels as there were others... Not only pistols... Two chaps went against each other by tossing billiard balls!)

The more fancy dueling swords, whilst popular, were not the only swords to be used... Military weapon like yours were also popular; obviously amongst the military elite.

See this site for a comprehensive history and reason detre upon dueling. https://ohiostatepress.org/Books/Com...g%20Men/06.pdf

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All~ Note to Library. It appears that in the late 19th Century a comprehensive fighting system(FOR DUELING) was rebuilt around the European Sabre. Books on the subject are reasonably findable, for example, The Art of the Dueling Sabre by Moniteur Christopher Holzman or simply by typing into web search Art of the Dueling Sabre. I am just looking at Forum library.. actually I was hoping to find some reference to marking swords after duels with a cross to signify a victory...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

.. actually I was hoping to find some reference to marking swords after duels with a cross to signify a victory...

Like the notches they used to cut in their gunstocks in the old West ?
Do you really beleive the crosses in this sword grip mean duel knock downs, Ibrahiim ?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by fernando

Like the notches they used to cut in their gunstocks in the old West ?
Do you really beleive the crosses in this sword grip mean duel knock downs, Ibrahiim ?

Salaams fernando... No actually I do not... but for some reason there are 3 crosses on this hilt and it struck me as a possibility, thus, I have delved into the world of dueling by sword... and found nothing related. Ah well it was worth the excursion y' know? Perhaps it was the number of times the owner fell off his horse?

Jim ~ I agree, yes it became a dwindling concept according to my reference previously which stated that though efforts to rule against Dueling had failed all the way up to about 1921 they still occurred in France .. but only a handful after WW1.. Which is also cited as the reason for the decline in Duels...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[neekee]

Sorry Jim, but what I was referring to about the crosses on a weapon was merely "popular belief". Something kids hear about in books and comics. Nothing seriously historical at all, eventhough in that array "popular rumours" are sometimes good to take into account.

I don't seriously believe the crosses on the sword mean "kills", btw. I would believe it mayyybe a little more if the sword was mid 19th century, with the 1870 war and all that, or even more if it was Napoleon era, but it was made in 1904. I don't see this weapon being wielded in Verdun's trenches ...

Still intriguing ...

[fernando]

Naturaly all of us would love to have a weapon (or two) with an history behind ... one with a dueling background would be an added value.
I know a collector who, during his gathering struggle, has gone into extreme situations, like swapping hundreds (hundreds) of regular muskets for a most wanted rare example; and having bought an entire collection of gun locks for the acquiring of a single one. I am not kidding; a member of this forum knows to whom such collection was purchased.
A 'modern' chromed sword having a three kill mark in its grip would easily stand in front of the line; and the owner having had his name in the hall of fame .
The three crosses could have been made for whatever reason; from being the user's mark to distinguish it from others at the depot to being a later owner (youngster ?) wishing to give it the "kill look".

[neekee]

Thanks Fernando and Iibrahim for the interesting comments.

In France there is a popular belief that a cross on a weapon means "1 kill". Of course there is no way to know when or for what reason such a cross would be made. ^^

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by neekee

Thanks Fernando and Iibrahim for the interesting comments.

In France there is a popular belief that a cross on a weapon means "1 kill". Of course there is no way to know when or for what reason such a cross would be made. ^^

Hi Neekee,
I'm most curious about this tally marking for 'kills' as you note is believed to be customary in France. Can you note where this information might be found?

The history of dueling is of course, colorful and intriguing, and I have often had occasion to look into it in varying degree. While there have always been rather glorifying or embellished accounts of these events, as far as I have ever known, no physical tallying of 'kills' or duels fought have ever been applied to weapons. There is no denying that 'duels' of sorts did exist in France, much as in Germany and other parts of Europe, these were most often rather 'ceremonial' despite the more rare occasions where genuine combat duels did result in loss of life or injury . However swords such as these later forms, as Fernando has noted , were not intended for combat, nor of course dueling.

This returns the question to, what would these 'x's represent? I don't believe these are the result of any set or standard kind of marks despite the fact that triple Xs can be associated with many possible symbolisms. Why they are there would be anybody's guess, particularly in this odd location in the grip.

For library refs and further reading, these are the resources I checked:
"The Secret History of the Sword" J.Cristoph Amberger, 1999
I subscribed to his Hammerterz Verlag for some years in 1990s. He has personally fought seven of the 'mensur duels in Germany (1985-87)

"Sword & Masque", J.Palff-Alpar, 1967

"Duelling:Cult of Honor in Fin de Siecle Germany" Kevin McAleer, 1994, p.195
Chapters on dueling in France.

"By the Sword", 2002, Richard Cohen, p.317
extensive detail on fencing, dueling and sword history

The triple poincons on the blade would be for the director, controller and reviser at Chatellerault.

As Ibrahiim has noted, some military swords were indeed used in these 'duels, however there were apparently threaded apertures in the blade where a plate was secured to prevent severe injury. Serious duels were apparently fought with the epee, with the rare occasion as noted of use of a sabre.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

As Ibrahiim has noted, some military swords were indeed used in these 'duels, however there were apparently threaded apertures in the blade where a plate was secured to prevent severe injury.

Some relation with the XVIII century fencing foil discipline, with their points protected with a blossom ... thus the name fleuret . Wilder practitioners could always take the knob off and engage into more serious duels.
It looks like women from the period also went into such exercizes

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