Flintlock brought for Christmas

fernando · 24th December 2012, 12:20 PM

Arrived yesterday. Had to give a couple swords to acquire this one; there aren't many with these precise details.
The pattern is after the British New Land; the production is Portuguese, no doubt about that.
Made to equip the Municipal Guard and, in this particular case, for the Oporto Division, which is the main score, as usually everything found is from Lisbon.
The lockplate prsents the marks of the Army Arsenal and the date made. In the butt cap the initial of the Porto Municipal Guard and the user number.
The wood is got worm holes and is a bit fragilized here and there but ... what the hell. Original swivel ramrod. Brass mountings.
The specifications are those of the New Land: caliber 17,3 m/m barrel length 23 cms. total length 40 cms. weight 1,370 Kgs.

.

Norman McCormick · 24th December 2012, 04:16 PM

Hi Fernando,
First, have you got some special relationship with S. Claus. Esq. to get your gift early, as far as I know he is still revving up the reindeer prior to take off.

Anyway, nice pistol, I looked at something similar a few weeks ago obviously without the Portuguese connection but the top part of the hammer was missing so I let it go. Are you going to fill the wormholes with wax? it can look quite good and not too noticeable if done well. Remember don't point it skyward and try a shot tonight you never know who's flying above you.

My Regards,
Norman.

Fernando K · 24th December 2012, 04:40 PM

Hola, Fernando

Yo también, como Norman, te pregunto si vas a tapar los agujeros de polilla con cera, o si conoces algún otro método. Yo he probado con aserrín de madera (del mismo color), empapado con sellador (que debe ser nitro-celulosa)

Te felicito por el regalo y cuéntanos algo, si las manufacturas o fábricas eran estatales o privadas.

Fernando K

Hello, Fernando

I too, like Norman, I wonder if you plug the holes with moth wax , or if you know any other method. I've tried it with sawdust (same color), soaked with sealant (to be nitro-cellulose)

I congratulate you for the gift and tell us something, whether manufacturing or factories were state or private.

.

fernando · 24th December 2012, 05:50 PM

Thank you guys.
Yes, i thought about filling the wormholes, but wouldn't like to do it by myself, afraid it doesn't come out well. But it is in my agenda; other me or someone else will have to do it.
Fernando, the 'Arsenal do Exercito' has been the State arms factory for centuries. It is now the Military Museum.
You should visit it some time.

.

Norman McCormick · 24th December 2012, 06:13 PM

Hi Fernando,
Here's a photograph of the pistol I mentioned, this one was marked Blake/London.
My Regards,
Norman.

fernando · 24th December 2012, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Fernando,
Here's a photograph of the pistol I mentioned, this one was marked Blake/London.
My Regards,
Norman.

The picture is small, but i would say this is the native New Land Pattern, made under Government contract.
The guy whith whom i traded my Portuguese example also has a British one, but you can imagine what my option was

.

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Norman McCormick · 24th December 2012, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

The guy whith whom i traded my Portuguese example also has a British one, but you can imagine what my option was

.

.

Mmmmm let me guess.

fernando · 24th December 2012, 06:40 PM

Not just because is my corner but also because Portuguese stuff is extremely hard to gather

.

Norman McCormick · 24th December 2012, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Not just because is my corner but also because Portuguese stuff is extremely hard to gather

.

Hi Fernando,
That I can understand, Scottish stuff is the same, thin on the ground and expensive when it is available.
My Regards,
Norman.

M ELEY · 26th December 2012, 06:53 AM

Not to be dull, but do the worm holes have to be filled? I actually rather like them and think they build character fo the item. I have an American boarding pike with a wormy ash shaft that I wouldn't dream of filling. Now, if you tell me that these holes weaken the structure of the piece...then, I might agree.

Norman McCormick · 26th December 2012, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Not to be dull, but do the worm holes have to be filled? I actually rather like them and think they build character fo the item. I have an American boarding pike with a wormy ash shaft that I wouldn't dream of filling. Now, if you tell me that these holes weaken the structure of the piece...then, I might agree.

Hi Mark,
Not dull at all. I think this falls within the restore or not debate and how far do you go. Personal preference must be the main consideration, a quality furniture restorer could make a really nice job on the wormholes making them all but invisible but on the other hand for some it might compromise the historical integrity of the piece. I think Fernando has a really nice pistol

'restored' or not. Degrees of 'restoration' will always have its advocates and detractors, as collectors the least we can do is make sure that the items that come our way don't deteriorate any further, whether we wish to take our 'care' any further is obviously up to the individual. It's always a tricky question.
My Regards,
Norman.

P.S. I hope Santa was good to you.

fernando · 26th December 2012, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

... Not to be dull, but do the worm holes have to be filled? I actually rather like them and think they build character fo the item. I have an American boarding pike with a wormy ash shaft that I wouldn't dream of filling. Now, if you tell me that these holes weaken the structure of the piece...then, I might agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Mark,
Not dull at all. I think this falls within the restore or not debate and how far do you go. Personal preference must be the main consideration, a quality furniture restorer could make a really nice job on the wormholes making them all but invisible but on the other hand for some it might compromise the historical integrity of the piece. I think Fernando has a really nice pistol

'restored' or not. Degrees of 'restoration' will always have its advocates and detractors, as collectors the least we can do is make sure that the items that come our way don't deteriorate any further, whether we wish to take our 'care' any further is obviously up to the individual. It's always a tricky question....

A tricky question indeed. I (guess i) am usually against restoring things, specially if it means pure reconstruction of something that is missing and even sometimes unknown, with the implicit risk to change the basic object's appearance; you know, adding something that will be screaming out as a foreign body.
But (i guess) filling wormholes is like expelling from the object (and from your mind) the idea that the worms themselves are still there, even if not ... and does not alter the texture and patina of (in this case) the pistol.
I will have to sleep over this issue for a while ... and maybe consult, not an actual restorer, but a (wealthy clintele) stock maker i know in the vicinity, who gives me the previlege to attend my profitless 'commissions'.

M ELEY · 27th December 2012, 08:38 AM

Thanks, Norman and Fernando for answering my question. I had actualy wondered about worm holes in pieces for quite some time. I apreciate your answers and patience with my asking. Fernando, this is a great piece and I wish I was getting one for Christmas-

Norm, Santa didn't get me anything!! Well, I did get a nice hanger ca. 1680 last month. That will have to do. Hope yours was a good holiday!

fernando · 27th December 2012, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Norm, Santa didn't get me anything!! Well, I did get a nice hanger ca. 1680 last month...

Oh man, circa 1680 ? That's business

I love early stuff

Norman McCormick · 27th December 2012, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Oh man, circa 1680 ? That's business

I love early stuff

Me too

24th December 2012, 12:20 PM	#1
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Flintlock brought for Christmas Arrived yesterday. Had to give a couple swords to acquire this one; there aren't many with these precise details. The pattern is after the British New Land; the production is Portuguese, no doubt about that. Made to equip the Municipal Guard and, in this particular case, for the Oporto Division, which is the main score, as usually everything found is from Lisbon. The lockplate prsents the marks of the Army Arsenal and the date made. In the butt cap the initial of the Porto Municipal Guard and the user number. The wood is got worm holes and is a bit fragilized here and there but ... what the hell. Original swivel ramrod. Brass mountings. The specifications are those of the New Land: caliber 17,3 m/m barrel length 23 cms. total length 40 cms. weight 1,370 Kgs. . Attached Images

24th December 2012, 04:40 PM	#3
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 664	Hola, Fernando Yo también, como Norman, te pregunto si vas a tapar los agujeros de polilla con cera, o si conoces algún otro método. Yo he probado con aserrín de madera (del mismo color), empapado con sellador (que debe ser nitro-celulosa) Te felicito por el regalo y cuéntanos algo, si las manufacturas o fábricas eran estatales o privadas. Fernando K Hello, Fernando I too, like Norman, I wonder if you plug the holes with moth wax , or if you know any other method. I've tried it with sawdust (same color), soaked with sealant (to be nitro-cellulose) I congratulate you for the gift and tell us something, whether manufacturing or factories were state or private. . Last edited by fernando; 24th December 2012 at 05:17 PM.

24th December 2012, 05:50 PM	#4
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Thank you guys. Yes, i thought about filling the wormholes, but wouldn't like to do it by myself, afraid it doesn't come out well. But it is in my agenda; other me or someone else will have to do it. Fernando, the 'Arsenal do Exercito' has been the State arms factory for centuries. It is now the Military Museum. You should visit it some time. . Attached Images

24th December 2012, 06:13 PM	#5
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi Fernando, Here's a photograph of the pistol I mentioned, this one was marked Blake/London. My Regards, Norman. Attached Images

24th December 2012, 04:16 PM	#2
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,575	Hi Fernando, First, have you got some special relationship with S. Claus. Esq. to get your gift early, as far as I know he is still revving up the reindeer prior to take off. Anyway, nice pistol, I looked at something similar a few weeks ago obviously without the Portuguese connection but the top part of the hammer was missing so I let it go. Are you going to fill the wormholes with wax? it can look quite good and not too noticeable if done well. Remember don't point it skyward and try a shot tonight you never know who's flying above you. My Regards, Norman.

24th December 2012, 06:40 PM	#8
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Not just because is my corner but also because Portuguese stuff is extremely hard to gather .

26th December 2012, 06:53 AM	#10
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,072	Not to be dull, but do the worm holes have to be filled? I actually rather like them and think they build character fo the item. I have an American boarding pike with a wormy ash shaft that I wouldn't dream of filling. Now, if you tell me that these holes weaken the structure of the piece...then, I might agree.

27th December 2012, 08:38 AM	#13
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,072	Thanks, Norman and Fernando for answering my question. I had actualy wondered about worm holes in pieces for quite some time. I apreciate your answers and patience with my asking. Fernando, this is a great piece and I wish I was getting one for Christmas- Norm, Santa didn't get me anything!! Well, I did get a nice hanger ca. 1680 last month. That will have to do. Hope yours was a good holiday!