Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 26th April 2012, 10:03 PM   #1
Jean-Marc S.
Member
 
Jean-Marc S.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: France
Posts: 104
Default Is this blade marking a 'Passau Wolf' (german sword late 16th to early 17th century)?

Hello,

Please, is this marking appearing on the blade of a renaissance period sword a so-called 'Passau Wolf' ?

Thanks,

jm
Attached Images
  
Jean-Marc S. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th April 2012, 12:44 AM   #2
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

Hi Jm,

How about using automatic focus combined with flash light when taking images?
And, as 'Nando formerly requested: we need to see as much as possible of the whole item. Remember the blade (or whatever part) might not belong ...

Anyway, I passed these on to my friend and will let you know his comment as soon as he is back.

m
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th April 2012, 07:01 AM   #3
Jean-Marc S.
Member
 
Jean-Marc S.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: France
Posts: 104
Default

Hello,

The sword is the one posted here:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15433

jm
Jean-Marc S. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th April 2012, 11:38 AM   #4
Swordfish
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 129
Default

Hi

I am absolutely sure that this is no Passau Wolf, the Passau mark was copied by many manufacturers and dealers during the Renaissance period. Many sword blades of Solingen bear copied wulfs, but this unusual shape was not used in Solingen.

Best
Swordfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th April 2012, 06:26 PM   #5
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,719
Default

The term 'Passau wolf' actually derives from the talismanic perceptions used on weapons originally produced in that city, once a prolific blade making center. The stylized interpretations from these early and crudely inscribed or stamped zoomorphic devices became widely adopted, particularly in the burgeoning center of Solingen. The original application of the term was actually 'Passau art' and was with reference to not only the talismanic properties purported to be imbued in the swords, but to magical amulets in other forms as well.

Magical charms, amulets and talismans were widely adopted in the context of arms and armour with thier obvious associations in the often mortal circumstances of thier use. There were many adaptions and stylizations of these 'wolf' figures, and contrary to popular belief, there are no developmental or regional typologies nor chronological linears. It should be remembered that much as with many magical charms, amulets and apotropaic devices, these are often personalized rather than strictly copied.
The geometric 'crosshatching' seen here is an element often seen in various magical contexts of the period, and certain features of this configuration do resemble those seen on the running wolf variations.

While modern perceptions often view these interpretations of magical amulets and stylized symbolism as nonsensical, it is important to remember it is not necessary to believe the explanations given, but it is essential to try to understand what those using them believed.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th April 2012, 10:46 PM   #6
Jean-Marc S.
Member
 
Jean-Marc S.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: France
Posts: 104
Default

Thanks Jim and Swordfish for your helpful comments.

jm
Jean-Marc S. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th April 2012, 01:08 AM   #7
Dmitry
Member
 
Dmitry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 607
Default

Your mark looks to me like it could be Passau. Or made to resemble Passau.
Attached Images
   
Dmitry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th April 2012, 05:02 AM   #8
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,719
Default

You're quite welcome Jean-Marc! Looks like an extremely nice sword too, and most interesting interpretation of these markings. These kinds of variations are seen in numbers of other markings as well such as the 'anchor'; 'sickle marks'; and cross and orb which are some of the most familiar types.

The chart Dmitry has posted is from Eduard Wagner's "Cut & Thrust Weapons" (Prague, 1967) and well illustrates my point about the absence of linear developmental chronology with these markings, yet shows some of the variations. I believe these 'dated' examples are drawn from examples the author observed and the presumed period of the weapons he saw them on, as often the case in catalogued items. There are no regional classifications nor associated makers noted and essentially these are random examples of this commonly and widely duplicated image.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th April 2012, 07:46 PM   #9
Jean-Marc S.
Member
 
Jean-Marc S.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: France
Posts: 104
Default

Thank you all for the comments.

On the blade of this sword, there is a period marking in old german : 'You come to me', and on the reverse blade: 'then I cut you'. There is also a cross and orb marking, which shape is 16th century.

Interestingly, there are two strange deeper linear (and parallel) marks on the blade, perhaps 'two kills' ...

jm
Jean-Marc S. is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:17 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.