European(?) Hunting(?) Whatsit

CourseEight · 12th September 2009, 09:30 PM

Hi all --

Just ended on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=270452438130

Not really sure what it is, how old, etc. and as always would appreciate any insights!

Thanks!

--Radleigh

colin henshaw · 12th September 2009, 09:46 PM

Not my area at all...but it looks like a hunting sword, with the hilt in the form of a 17th century plug bayonet.

M ELEY · 13th September 2009, 05:12 AM

Hmmm...Well, Colin is right that the hilt is like a plug bayonet, but if it were a plug, why the shell guard? As a plug bayonet placed in the end of a musket, a guard seems redundant. Yet, the hilt does look original and not a composite. A multi-use weapon? Both a sword/dagger for close range fighting or as an accompaniment bayonet to the empty fowler?

Gavin Nugent · 13th September 2009, 07:00 AM

A nice piece at a very good price.

From what I have read and also within the reference book by R.D.C.Evans, there are 18th century plug bayonets of this style found in Germany. Pages 88-101 show this and writings on pages 93 and 94 talk of the Germanic hunting bayonets. Mr Evans also talks of the VIVAT PANDUR markings found on these. The markings on this one presented may be of a similar quality marking, certainly worthy of future research.
I'll read further and see if this mark is actually found within Mr Evans fantastic book.

Gav

Jim McDougall · 13th September 2009, 04:03 PM

Spot on Gav!!!
The R.D.C. Evans book does carry great information on these, and the plug bayonet itself carried on vestigially as a hunting weapon long after its use as such had diminished, particularly in Spain and its provincial regions.

In the case of this example, which is fantastic, indications are for East Europe possibly, and of probably of latter 18th century. The vestigial crossguard and shell correspond to the smallsword and courtsword type allusions that were often favored, as hunting was of course key to the gentry.

The interesting shape of the point on this also reminds me of the number of classifications in the 1962 reference book by Gerhard Seifert, "Schwert degen Sabel" in which this shape is actually termed 'pandour point'.
The pandours, as previously discussed, were often thought of as fierce and intimidating predators, and became a decorative element in motif on these types of weapons in the sense of hubris and bravado.

Best regards,
Jim

fernando · 13th September 2009, 06:09 PM

Great "Pandour" plug bayonet ... great price, too.
The vestigial shell guard, remnant of hunting swords, and the cup shape ferrule, are German details that influenced plug bayonets from other countries ... Portugal, for one.
This specimen would certainly be from the XVIII century.
Fernando

CourseEight · 13th September 2009, 07:29 PM

Thanks so much everyone! I'll be ordering R.D.C. Evans' book directly. Thrilled that it is older and better than I had hoped!

I'd love to hear any other information that is out there, especially about the markings!

--Radleigh

Jim McDougall · 13th September 2009, 10:35 PM

Roger Evans is a brilliant researcher and has written on bayonets and every aspect of history on them imaginable for many years, some time ago used to write a monthly installent titled "Cold Steel".
He still writes regularly in "The Armourer" magazine in England, and I just renewed my subscription when I found out he was still writing there.

The information in "The Plug Bayonet" is amazingly detailed, especially in information on markings and motif, which is often a great asset in the study of swords, especially hunting swords and associated motif. These kinds of motof often found thier way to court swords and officers swords in the 18th century and into the 19th as officers were of course, gentry, and the same attention to popular fashion prevailed.

Best regards,
Jim

katana · 15th September 2009, 12:29 PM

Hi Radleigh,
the 'lames' is French for blades .....so perhaps French / French colonial made or retailed ?

Regards David

fernando · 15th September 2009, 01:44 PM

Hi David,

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Radleigh,
the 'lames' is French for blades .....so perhaps French / French colonial made or retailed ?

Regards David

Could well be!
... and Turck, the way it is spelled, could be the maker's/trader's name?!

BTW, i hope this is a sunny day in Kent

Fernando

katana · 15th September 2009, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi David,

BTW, i hope this is a sunny day in Kent

Fernando

Hi Fernando

thats what I like about the Portuguese ....forever the optimists...... its pouring down with rain

Turck is not bringing anything up on 'Google', although in 'Google maps' Turck is in Germany .....perhaps a German blade for the French market or as you suggested, the maker's name.

All the best
David

fernando · 17th September 2009, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

... thats what I like about the Portuguese ....forever the optimists...... its pouring down with rain

...

So i guessed; i just felt like droping in some British humour

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

...Turck is not bringing anything up on 'Google', although in 'Google maps' Turck is in Germany .....perhaps a German blade for the French market or as you suggested, the maker's name....

You don't tell that my local Google is better that Kent's one

http://fr-fr.facebook.com/Civodul?ref=mf
http://fr-fr.facebook.com/meluturck
http://www.mpipsykl.mpg.de/en/people/turck_c.shtml
http://www.kompass.com/pt/DE600517
http://heliopaz.com/tag/guga-turck/

Fernando

katana · 17th September 2009, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Turck is not bringing anything up on 'Google'....

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

You don't tell that my local Google is better that Kent's one

http://fr-fr.facebook.com/Civodul?ref=mf
http://fr-fr.facebook.com/meluturck
http://www.mpipsykl.mpg.de/en/people/turck_c.shtml
http://www.kompass.com/pt/DE600517
http://heliopaz.com/tag/guga-turck/

Fernando

....I mean't in relation to swords or blades

Regards David

CourseEight · 17th September 2009, 08:38 PM

Thanks for the added info!

I've received the sword, and will try to remember to take more pictures when I get the chance. Blade shows signs of bluing, and I would not at all be surprised if the blade were French. Türck, it seems, is a location and a surname, so it could be a manufacturer or the name of the owner.

In any case, it actually says Türck on both sides of the blade, with three dots after it on one side. Also, lovely scroll work on the spine!

All in all I'm thrilled,

--Radleigh

Jim McDougall · 20th September 2009, 03:59 AM

In looking further into 'Evans' book, this same style hilt is seen on #181, and in p.93 it is noted that "...this style of Austrian bayonet formed the basis for the 'pandour' plug bayonets of the 1740's and 50's".
Apparantly the 'pandour' affectation diffused well outside its origins in the Austro-Hungarian Empire in those times and the fearsome reputation of these auxiliary and often outlaw units caught the attention of some of the armies who confronted them.
The French were deeply impressed by these units, as were Germans, and the 'pandour' phenomenon caused the implementation of similar styled units in the French army, as well as the 'Frei korps' in the German.

The word 'Turke'* is in my opinion most likely a stylized reference to the oriental fashioning of these units, and probably applied to the blade as a reference to this, and 'lames' possibly suggesting a style of blade.
The evidence of bluing suggests to me latter 18th century, the 'pandour' point as noted earlier a 'style' (see Seifert reference), and in all, quite possibly a weapon for a French officer.

Evans (p.94) notes that the popularity of these weapons prompted thier manufacture not only in Solingen, but other centers such as Passau, and Suhl. It does not seem unlikely that with the French word 'lames' this might have been produced either in French regions or in Solingen for the French market. The shellguard seems predominantly German.

* In Scotland, the basket hilts with curved blades were termed 'turcael' referring to the curved blades of the Turks, and noting the style.

Radleigh, this piece is truly a conquest!!!

In admiration!!

Jim

13th September 2009, 07:00 AM	#4
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	A nice Piece A nice piece at a very good price. From what I have read and also within the reference book by R.D.C.Evans, there are 18th century plug bayonets of this style found in Germany. Pages 88-101 show this and writings on pages 93 and 94 talk of the Germanic hunting bayonets. Mr Evans also talks of the VIVAT PANDUR markings found on these. The markings on this one presented may be of a similar quality marking, certainly worthy of future research. I'll read further and see if this mark is actually found within Mr Evans fantastic book. Gav

12th September 2009, 09:30 PM	#1
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	European(?) Hunting(?) Whatsit Hi all -- Just ended on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=270452438130 Not really sure what it is, how old, etc. and as always would appreciate any insights! Thanks! --Radleigh Attached Images

12th September 2009, 09:46 PM	#2
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Not my area at all...but it looks like a hunting sword, with the hilt in the form of a 17th century plug bayonet.

13th September 2009, 05:12 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,066	Hmmm...Well, Colin is right that the hilt is like a plug bayonet, but if it were a plug, why the shell guard? As a plug bayonet placed in the end of a musket, a guard seems redundant. Yet, the hilt does look original and not a composite. A multi-use weapon? Both a sword/dagger for close range fighting or as an accompaniment bayonet to the empty fowler?

13th September 2009, 04:03 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,747	Spot on Gav!!! The R.D.C. Evans book does carry great information on these, and the plug bayonet itself carried on vestigially as a hunting weapon long after its use as such had diminished, particularly in Spain and its provincial regions. In the case of this example, which is fantastic, indications are for East Europe possibly, and of probably of latter 18th century. The vestigial crossguard and shell correspond to the smallsword and courtsword type allusions that were often favored, as hunting was of course key to the gentry. The interesting shape of the point on this also reminds me of the number of classifications in the 1962 reference book by Gerhard Seifert, "Schwert degen Sabel" in which this shape is actually termed 'pandour point'. The pandours, as previously discussed, were often thought of as fierce and intimidating predators, and became a decorative element in motif on these types of weapons in the sense of hubris and bravado. Best regards, Jim

13th September 2009, 06:09 PM	#6
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Great "Pandour" plug bayonet ... great price, too. The vestigial shell guard, remnant of hunting swords, and the cup shape ferrule, are German details that influenced plug bayonets from other countries ... Portugal, for one. This specimen would certainly be from the XVIII century. Fernando

13th September 2009, 07:29 PM	#7
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	Thanks so much everyone! I'll be ordering R.D.C. Evans' book directly. Thrilled that it is older and better than I had hoped! I'd love to hear any other information that is out there, especially about the markings! --Radleigh

13th September 2009, 10:35 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,747	Roger Evans is a brilliant researcher and has written on bayonets and every aspect of history on them imaginable for many years, some time ago used to write a monthly installent titled "Cold Steel". He still writes regularly in "The Armourer" magazine in England, and I just renewed my subscription when I found out he was still writing there. The information in "The Plug Bayonet" is amazingly detailed, especially in information on markings and motif, which is often a great asset in the study of swords, especially hunting swords and associated motif. These kinds of motof often found thier way to court swords and officers swords in the 18th century and into the 19th as officers were of course, gentry, and the same attention to popular fashion prevailed. Best regards, Jim

15th September 2009, 12:29 PM	#9
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Radleigh, the 'lames' is French for blades .....so perhaps French / French colonial made or retailed ? Regards David

17th September 2009, 08:38 PM	#14
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	Thanks for the added info! I've received the sword, and will try to remember to take more pictures when I get the chance. Blade shows signs of bluing, and I would not at all be surprised if the blade were French. Türck, it seems, is a location and a surname, so it could be a manufacturer or the name of the owner. In any case, it actually says Türck on both sides of the blade, with three dots after it on one side. Also, lovely scroll work on the spine! All in all I'm thrilled, --Radleigh

20th September 2009, 03:59 AM	#15
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,747	In looking further into 'Evans' book, this same style hilt is seen on #181, and in p.93 it is noted that "...this style of Austrian bayonet formed the basis for the 'pandour' plug bayonets of the 1740's and 50's". Apparantly the 'pandour' affectation diffused well outside its origins in the Austro-Hungarian Empire in those times and the fearsome reputation of these auxiliary and often outlaw units caught the attention of some of the armies who confronted them. The French were deeply impressed by these units, as were Germans, and the 'pandour' phenomenon caused the implementation of similar styled units in the French army, as well as the 'Frei korps' in the German. The word 'Turke'* is in my opinion most likely a stylized reference to the oriental fashioning of these units, and probably applied to the blade as a reference to this, and 'lames' possibly suggesting a style of blade. The evidence of bluing suggests to me latter 18th century, the 'pandour' point as noted earlier a 'style' (see Seifert reference), and in all, quite possibly a weapon for a French officer. Evans (p.94) notes that the popularity of these weapons prompted thier manufacture not only in Solingen, but other centers such as Passau, and Suhl. It does not seem unlikely that with the French word 'lames' this might have been produced either in French regions or in Solingen for the French market. The shellguard seems predominantly German. * In Scotland, the basket hilts with curved blades were termed 'turcael' referring to the curved blades of the Turks, and noting the style. Radleigh, this piece is truly a conquest!!! In admiration!! Jim