Keris Sundang Melayu with twist core

VVV · 19th June 2013, 01:41 PM

Alan,

I will not be home with my reference works (like Scott's work on how the Spaniards described the Philippines in the 16th C) for two weeks but here are several reference krisses, datings and most of the earlier discussion on this issue on this forum.

"archaic kris threads"

I would consider the early 19th C kris as archaic and those krisses that closely resemble an Indonesian keris as proto- or transitional kerisses.
Here is an example of a "proto-kris" that I would date as earlier than the one in my first post (next to a regular-sized Madura keris).

Michael

A. G. Maisey · 19th June 2013, 10:48 PM

Thank you Michael.

So the period around 1800 is considered to be about the time when these Southern Philippine swords in the form of a keris began to appear?

Thanks. That's pretty much as I had thought.

I tried the "archaic" link you provided, but it took me nowhere.

I look forward to your further comments.

kai · 20th June 2013, 12:37 AM

Hello Alan,

Quote:

So the period around 1800 is considered to be about the time when these Southern Philippine swords in the form of a keris began to appear?

A bit earlier at least IMHO. How much this extends into the 18th century (and even earlier) is still not well researched yet; the main problem is the scarcity of reliably provenenced museum examples.

Here's an old discussion on archaic (Moro) kris:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=241

So, what would be your estimate when twistcore-like pamor appeared in, say, central Jawa?

Regards,
Kai

A. G. Maisey · 20th June 2013, 01:58 AM

Thanks for your input Kai.

The question really is:-

when did complex pamor miring motifs begin to appear in Jawa?

My answer is:-

I do not know

My qualification is:-

perhaps complex pamor miring did not appear in Central Jawa until the late 18th, early 19th century; in other words at the time when the keris had already been reduced to an item of dress.

There are many reasons for this opinion, and I do not feel inclined to expand upon those reasons here, because to do so convincingly would require a very large number of words and very long time to write them. Probably complex pamor miring appeared in East Jawa and along the North Coast prior to being reasonably common in Central Jawa.

In any case, if a keris that dates from circa 1800, and of the type under discussion in this thread, is regarded as "archaic" then there is really no reason to doubt that twist pamors did exist in "archaic" keris of this type.

In any case, what seems to qualify as "archaic" for this type of keris is regarded as a rather young weapon in the core tradition of the keris.

VVV · 20th June 2013, 07:29 AM

Alan,

Sorry about the link, maybe the session expired.
Try yourself to search "archaic kris" on this forum and you will find several interesting threads and pictures of archaic kris.

On the dating I seem to have been unclear. I meant that the archaic kris survived into the first quarter of the 19th before being replaced by the next style in popularity. When it first appeared is more difficult to date but there seems to be a collector's consensus that it was produced at least from the early 18th C.

The kris sword is mentioned, but not pictured AFAIK, in much older sources but I do not have them with me when traveling.
Hopefully someone else can check them. Otherwise I will have a look and return to this thread in two weeks.
Scott's book would be a god start but there are several other sources that describes what the Philippines, Brunei, Borneo, North Malaysia and Sulawesi (= "the kris sword belt", the areas being close to the major Malay/Indonesian iron sources in Borneo and Sulawesi) looked like between 16 - 18th C. Both the kampilan and the kris are often mentioned in those travel descriptions from early European visitors.
At that time the kris sword still also was popular in the Central Philippines. I found this description in an extract on my computer, from Scott's book Barangay: Sixteenth Century Philippine Culture and Society, on the Visayas, page 148:

"There were two kind of swords - kris (Visayan kalis) and kampilan, both words of Malay origin. The kris was a long double-edged blade (modern specimens run to 60 or 70 centimeters), either straight or wavy but characterized by an asymmetrical flare at the end of the hilt end, called kalaw-kalaw after the kalaw hornbill.The wavy kris was called kiwi-kiwo, and so was an astute, devious man whose movement could not be predicted. Hilt were carved of any solid material - hardwood, bone, antler, even shell - and great datu warriors had them of solid gold, or encrusted with precious stones. Blades were forged from layers of different grades of steel, which gave them a veined or mottled surface - damascened or "watered." But even the best Visayan products were considered inferior to those from Mindanao and Sulu, and in turn were less esteemed than imports from Makassar and Borneo. Alcina thought the best of them excelled Spanish blades."

[Alcina was an early 17th Jesuit missionary who researched and documented the Philippines.]
Unfortunately I only had the chapter about the Visayas on my computer but, unless anyone will claim that the kris sword originated on Panay, I hope it will be of interest as a source that some kind of kris swords existed already in the 16th - 17th C in the kris sword belt.

The importance of Scott's research of the 16th C Philippines (based on Spanish sources from the same century) is "slightly corresponding" to Pigeaud's for Java in the 14th C, so I think his book will interest you.

Michael

A. G. Maisey · 20th June 2013, 09:10 AM

Thank you for your clarification Michael, and for all the additional information.

Going back 50 or so years I did do a lot reading of early publications that dealt with Malaya, Borneo and other SE Asian countries, much of what I read was Oxford University Press reprints, in fact I still have maybe a dozen large boxes of these books stacked in my garage. I used to have a very good idea of what that part of the world was like from the time of first European contact through to the early 20th century. However as my focus narrowed I lost interest in these other areas, and I have forgotten much.

I never did have much interest in the Philippines, and still do not, and I guess we can blame this disinterest in the society and culture of these other areas for my lack of knowledge of the weaponry found in those places. However, one is undoubtedly linked to the other. After the collapse of Hindu Jawa the character of the Javanese keris changed, and its common dispersal by principally Islamic traders saw it introduced into other places in Maritime SE Asia as an artifact that had virtually no relationship at all to its original purpose. Thus my loss of interest in the keris in these non-core areas.

Moving away from my excuses for ignorance, and back to a question that does have some interest for me, that is emergence of the sword in the form of a keris. Would it be reasonable to date the earliest appearance of this "sword-keris" at around the beginning of the 18th century, rather than the beginning of the 19th century? If this is so, what are the available sources for confirmation of this? If we cannot confirm, what evidence is there to support the "collectors consensus" that you mention?

Do we have a language interpretation problem in relation to the sword in the form of a keris, or is there no doubt at all that when reference is made to this artifact that word does refer to what many now refer to as the Moro Keris? (or kris, or criss, or any other generally understood synonym)

Please excuse my variant approach to this matter. You see, I do not think in terms of "nice catches", or pretty pamors or scarce and unusual forms. I think in terms of history and societal relevance. This of course means that I tend to look for verification of opinions, or if not verification, then at least some sort of logical supporting argument for an opinion.

GUSTAV

Any pamor miring is difficult, and once you go to a pamor miring you can count on using vastly more material, fuel and time. The possibility of error increases many times, and the possibility of failure increases many times.

Assessed on the basis of these factors alone, any pamor miring is by its nature a complex pamor. However, some are more complex than others, and these are pamors that are produced by twisting, splitting, re-welding, or other manipulation of the entire body of the bakalan, rather than by manipulation of the surface alone.

As examples, udan (hujan) mas is the result of surface manipulation.

The pamor in the keris that we are looking at in this thread is the result of manipulation of the entire bakalan.

VVV · 20th June 2013, 09:36 AM

Alan,

Oxford University is always a good source for credible references...
Anyway, Scott (who is an esteemed academic historian and not a weapon collector) is translating the 17th descriptions from the Jesuit missionary Acina (and earlier descriptions from other Spanish sources elsewhere in his book) as a kris sword (see my quote).
Other kind of blades he describes as daggers, so he seems to be quite specific on this matter (which of course is very essential for our discussion).
This means that some kind of kris swords existed already when the Spanish arrived to "the kris sword belt" in the 16th C.

To summarize:
a) Spanish sources state that there existed kris swords in the 16th C.
b) Weapon collectors state that some of the kris swords in museums and other collections - among them labelled "the archaic kris" (sword) - were made from the early 18th to the beginning of the 19th C.
c) It is not proven if the "archaic kris" (b), which we know what it looks like, is the same as the 16 - 17th C "kris sword" (a).
However, even if we at the moment do not have a picture here of the kris sword described in Scott's book, this does not imply that there is no proof of the existence of kris swords before the 18th C.

My suggestion as a start is that some forumite who can read Spanish double checks the original sources of Scott's to find out why he considers them to be a kris sword, instead of a kris dagger.
However, Scott is a historian and his publication is following academic standards. This implies that his research and conclusions already have been peer-reviewed by other historians (who probably not were sword collectors and, like you and me, biased in this matter).

Michael

PS If I would have been at home I would have been able to present other historic references than Scott/Acina for kris swords earlier than the 18th C, but this is a good start.

Gustav · 20th June 2013, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

My qualification is:-

perhaps complex pamor miring did not appear in Central Jawa until the late 18th, early 19th century; in other words at the time when the keris had already been reduced to an item of dress.

Alan, which kind of pamor would you consider as a complex pamor miring?

Has the kris in question a complex pamor miring?

Gustav · 20th June 2013, 09:57 AM

Alan, Kai, there are well known examples of Keris with Pamor Puntiran (twistcore), which are surely made before 1700. If this pamor wasn't popular in Central Java before 1800 (yet I think, the picture in Yogyakarta is another one then in Surakarta), it most probably has the reason, the technique of Pamor Puntiran is not coming from Central Java or Java at all.

So it would be wrong to conclude, Pamor Puntiran appeared on Krisses on Philippines only after they became popular in Central Java.

A. G. Maisey · 20th June 2013, 10:51 AM

Gustav, as you know, last year I looked at and photographed a number of very early keris held in several European museums.

In some cases I was unable to read the pamor, either because of the poor condition of the surface, or because the surface was polished.

In some cases the pamor was surface manipulated.

In only one keris was the pamor a miring pamor. This was keris EDB.16 held in Copenhagen. This keris probably entered the collection in 1674. My note reads:- "pamor skilfully manipulated, no name"

I am not prepared to say that pamor miring did not exist in Jawa prior 1700, but it was most certainly was not widespread.

I do not now possess, and I have never possessed a genuinely old Javanese keris, that is a keris that I have good reason to believe may date from before 1700, with a complex pamor miring. I cannot recall ever having seen such a keris.

It is most probable that the skills to produce complex pattern welds were brought to Jawa by Muslim metal workers. These people settled on the North Coast and in parts of East Jawa, rather than in the hinterland. In my opinion the skills used by the people of the Southern Philippines to produce complex pattern welds were brought to the Southern Philippines by Muslim metal workers, just as they were brought to Jawa by Muslim metal workers.

However, the metal workers who took the skills to the Philippines were very probably descendants of the original craftsmen who came from outside Maritime SE Asia. The craftsmen who spread the skills through Maritime S.E. Asia very probably came from the North Coast of Jawa and Madura.

Whenever I have shown photos of the blade of my Brunei keris to knowledgeable Javanese keris authorities they have given the opinion that it is Madura work, and this is also my opinion. Not "Made in Madura", but made by a Madura craftsman, or a craftsman who was trained by a Madura craftsman.

I really do not think that Central Jawa plays a part in this spread of form and technique at all, in my opinion it all came from the North Coast, which followed on from the original trade routes of Majapahit --- which of course were a development of earlier trade routes.

Gustav · 20th June 2013, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

In only one keris was the pamor a miring pamor. This was keris EDB.16 held in Copenhagen. This keris probably entered the collection in 1674. My note reads:- "pamor skilfully manipulated, no name"

According to the dissertation of A. Weihrauch, this keris has twistcore Pamor, 1 rod on one side, 2 welded together on other.

The keris of Sendai with some greater possibility has twistcore Pamor, Miring in any case.

The age of Kanjeng Kyai Ageng Kopek can be disputed (traditionally attributed to Demak). It also has twistcore Pamor.

The Keris of August the Strong in Dresden has a Pamor Miring, perhaps the name could be Blarak Ngirid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

It is most probable that the skills to produce complex pattern welds were brought to Jawa by Muslim metal workers. These people settled on the North Coast and in parts of East Jawa, rather than in the hinterland. In my opinion the skills used by the people of the Southern Philippines to produce complex pattern welds were brought to the Southern Philippines by Muslim metal workers, just as they were brought to Jawa by Muslim metal workers.

This is also my opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

However, the metal workers who took the skills to the Philippines were very probably descendants of the original craftsmen who came from outside Maritime SE Asia. The craftsmen who spread the skills through Maritime S.E. Asia very probably came from the North Coast of Jawa and Madura.

This is very possible, yet need to be proved. I cannot quote my source, yet I have read about strong direct contacts of Philippine Sultanates with Osman Sultanate.

Spunjer · 20th June 2013, 11:59 AM

hello Alan,
in theory anyway, the reason moro krises is bigger than their indonesian and malaysian counterparts was because of the necessity in order to match the toledo blades of the spaniards. it has then been postulated that it was during around the era of Sultan Kudarat (reigned from 1619 to 1671) when the transition happened. the Moros had minor skirmishes with the spaniards prior to this era, but it was during Kudarat's when the three major tribes allied themselves for the first time against a common enemy.
the form of kris above (deep, pronounced and much narrower blades than their later counterparts) is regarded as the oldest type (referred to as "archaic"). i have a particular kris (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...d=1#post143776) that has a rounded tang, as oppose to the flat ones common to the later models. IMHO, this was a carry-over from when it was shorter and most likely similar to their indonesian counterparts. now the transition from the "archaic" style to the more common type is up for debate. now again, IMHO the reason for the transition to the more recent style would've been due to the widening and lengthening of moro kris.

19th June 2013, 01:41 PM	#1
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Alan, I will not be home with my reference works (like Scott's work on how the Spaniards described the Philippines in the 16th C) for two weeks but here are several reference krisses, datings and most of the earlier discussion on this issue on this forum. "archaic kris threads" I would consider the early 19th C kris as archaic and those krisses that closely resemble an Indonesian keris as proto- or transitional kerisses. Here is an example of a "proto-kris" that I would date as earlier than the one in my first post (next to a regular-sized Madura keris). Michael Attached Images Last edited by VVV; 19th June 2013 at 02:10 PM. Reason: added Scott's book for someone else to check and "early" before 19th C on dating archaic krisses

20th June 2013, 09:10 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,736	Thank you for your clarification Michael, and for all the additional information. Going back 50 or so years I did do a lot reading of early publications that dealt with Malaya, Borneo and other SE Asian countries, much of what I read was Oxford University Press reprints, in fact I still have maybe a dozen large boxes of these books stacked in my garage. I used to have a very good idea of what that part of the world was like from the time of first European contact through to the early 20th century. However as my focus narrowed I lost interest in these other areas, and I have forgotten much. I never did have much interest in the Philippines, and still do not, and I guess we can blame this disinterest in the society and culture of these other areas for my lack of knowledge of the weaponry found in those places. However, one is undoubtedly linked to the other. After the collapse of Hindu Jawa the character of the Javanese keris changed, and its common dispersal by principally Islamic traders saw it introduced into other places in Maritime SE Asia as an artifact that had virtually no relationship at all to its original purpose. Thus my loss of interest in the keris in these non-core areas. Moving away from my excuses for ignorance, and back to a question that does have some interest for me, that is emergence of the sword in the form of a keris. Would it be reasonable to date the earliest appearance of this "sword-keris" at around the beginning of the 18th century, rather than the beginning of the 19th century? If this is so, what are the available sources for confirmation of this? If we cannot confirm, what evidence is there to support the "collectors consensus" that you mention? Do we have a language interpretation problem in relation to the sword in the form of a keris, or is there no doubt at all that when reference is made to this artifact that word does refer to what many now refer to as the Moro Keris? (or kris, or criss, or any other generally understood synonym) Please excuse my variant approach to this matter. You see, I do not think in terms of "nice catches", or pretty pamors or scarce and unusual forms. I think in terms of history and societal relevance. This of course means that I tend to look for verification of opinions, or if not verification, then at least some sort of logical supporting argument for an opinion. GUSTAV Any pamor miring is difficult, and once you go to a pamor miring you can count on using vastly more material, fuel and time. The possibility of error increases many times, and the possibility of failure increases many times. Assessed on the basis of these factors alone, any pamor miring is by its nature a complex pamor. However, some are more complex than others, and these are pamors that are produced by twisting, splitting, re-welding, or other manipulation of the entire body of the bakalan, rather than by manipulation of the surface alone. As examples, udan (hujan) mas is the result of surface manipulation. The pamor in the keris that we are looking at in this thread is the result of manipulation of the entire bakalan. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 20th June 2013 at 09:18 AM. Reason: respond to Gustav

20th June 2013, 09:36 AM	#7
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Alan, Oxford University is always a good source for credible references... Anyway, Scott (who is an esteemed academic historian and not a weapon collector) is translating the 17th descriptions from the Jesuit missionary Acina (and earlier descriptions from other Spanish sources elsewhere in his book) as a kris sword (see my quote). Other kind of blades he describes as daggers, so he seems to be quite specific on this matter (which of course is very essential for our discussion). This means that some kind of kris swords existed already when the Spanish arrived to "the kris sword belt" in the 16th C. To summarize: a) Spanish sources state that there existed kris swords in the 16th C. b) Weapon collectors state that some of the kris swords in museums and other collections - among them labelled "the archaic kris" (sword) - were made from the early 18th to the beginning of the 19th C. c) It is not proven if the "archaic kris" (b), which we know what it looks like, is the same as the 16 - 17th C "kris sword" (a). However, even if we at the moment do not have a picture here of the kris sword described in Scott's book, this does not imply that there is no proof of the existence of kris swords before the 18th C. My suggestion as a start is that some forumite who can read Spanish double checks the original sources of Scott's to find out why he considers them to be a kris sword, instead of a kris dagger. However, Scott is a historian and his publication is following academic standards. This implies that his research and conclusions already have been peer-reviewed by other historians (who probably not were sword collectors and, like you and me, biased in this matter). Michael PS If I would have been at home I would have been able to present other historic references than Scott/Acina for kris swords earlier than the 18th C, but this is a good start. Last edited by VVV; 20th June 2013 at 09:44 AM. Reason: added c)

19th June 2013, 10:48 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,736	Thank you Michael. So the period around 1800 is considered to be about the time when these Southern Philippine swords in the form of a keris began to appear? Thanks. That's pretty much as I had thought. I tried the "archaic" link you provided, but it took me nowhere. I look forward to your further comments.

20th June 2013, 01:58 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,736	Thanks for your input Kai. The question really is:- when did complex pamor miring motifs begin to appear in Jawa? My answer is:- I do not know My qualification is:- perhaps complex pamor miring did not appear in Central Jawa until the late 18th, early 19th century; in other words at the time when the keris had already been reduced to an item of dress. There are many reasons for this opinion, and I do not feel inclined to expand upon those reasons here, because to do so convincingly would require a very large number of words and very long time to write them. Probably complex pamor miring appeared in East Jawa and along the North Coast prior to being reasonably common in Central Jawa. In any case, if a keris that dates from circa 1800, and of the type under discussion in this thread, is regarded as "archaic" then there is really no reason to doubt that twist pamors did exist in "archaic" keris of this type. In any case, what seems to qualify as "archaic" for this type of keris is regarded as a rather young weapon in the core tradition of the keris.

20th June 2013, 07:29 AM	#5
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Alan, Sorry about the link, maybe the session expired. Try yourself to search "archaic kris" on this forum and you will find several interesting threads and pictures of archaic kris. On the dating I seem to have been unclear. I meant that the archaic kris survived into the first quarter of the 19th before being replaced by the next style in popularity. When it first appeared is more difficult to date but there seems to be a collector's consensus that it was produced at least from the early 18th C. The kris sword is mentioned, but not pictured AFAIK, in much older sources but I do not have them with me when traveling. Hopefully someone else can check them. Otherwise I will have a look and return to this thread in two weeks. Scott's book would be a god start but there are several other sources that describes what the Philippines, Brunei, Borneo, North Malaysia and Sulawesi (= "the kris sword belt", the areas being close to the major Malay/Indonesian iron sources in Borneo and Sulawesi) looked like between 16 - 18th C. Both the kampilan and the kris are often mentioned in those travel descriptions from early European visitors. At that time the kris sword still also was popular in the Central Philippines. I found this description in an extract on my computer, from Scott's book Barangay: Sixteenth Century Philippine Culture and Society, on the Visayas, page 148: "There were two kind of swords - kris (Visayan kalis) and kampilan, both words of Malay origin. The kris was a long double-edged blade (modern specimens run to 60 or 70 centimeters), either straight or wavy but characterized by an asymmetrical flare at the end of the hilt end, called kalaw-kalaw after the kalaw hornbill.The wavy kris was called kiwi-kiwo, and so was an astute, devious man whose movement could not be predicted. Hilt were carved of any solid material - hardwood, bone, antler, even shell - and great datu warriors had them of solid gold, or encrusted with precious stones. Blades were forged from layers of different grades of steel, which gave them a veined or mottled surface - damascened or "watered." But even the best Visayan products were considered inferior to those from Mindanao and Sulu, and in turn were less esteemed than imports from Makassar and Borneo. Alcina thought the best of them excelled Spanish blades." [Alcina was an early 17th Jesuit missionary who researched and documented the Philippines.] Unfortunately I only had the chapter about the Visayas on my computer but, unless anyone will claim that the kris sword originated on Panay, I hope it will be of interest as a source that some kind of kris swords existed already in the 16th - 17th C in the kris sword belt. The importance of Scott's research of the 16th C Philippines (based on Spanish sources from the same century) is "slightly corresponding" to Pigeaud's for Java in the 14th C, so I think his book will interest you. Michael

20th June 2013, 09:57 AM	#9
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,202	Alan, Kai, there are well known examples of Keris with Pamor Puntiran (twistcore), which are surely made before 1700. If this pamor wasn't popular in Central Java before 1800 (yet I think, the picture in Yogyakarta is another one then in Surakarta), it most probably has the reason, the technique of Pamor Puntiran is not coming from Central Java or Java at all. So it would be wrong to conclude, Pamor Puntiran appeared on Krisses on Philippines only after they became popular in Central Java.

20th June 2013, 10:51 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,736	Gustav, as you know, last year I looked at and photographed a number of very early keris held in several European museums. In some cases I was unable to read the pamor, either because of the poor condition of the surface, or because the surface was polished. In some cases the pamor was surface manipulated. In only one keris was the pamor a miring pamor. This was keris EDB.16 held in Copenhagen. This keris probably entered the collection in 1674. My note reads:- "pamor skilfully manipulated, no name" I am not prepared to say that pamor miring did not exist in Jawa prior 1700, but it was most certainly was not widespread. I do not now possess, and I have never possessed a genuinely old Javanese keris, that is a keris that I have good reason to believe may date from before 1700, with a complex pamor miring. I cannot recall ever having seen such a keris. It is most probable that the skills to produce complex pattern welds were brought to Jawa by Muslim metal workers. These people settled on the North Coast and in parts of East Jawa, rather than in the hinterland. In my opinion the skills used by the people of the Southern Philippines to produce complex pattern welds were brought to the Southern Philippines by Muslim metal workers, just as they were brought to Jawa by Muslim metal workers. However, the metal workers who took the skills to the Philippines were very probably descendants of the original craftsmen who came from outside Maritime SE Asia. The craftsmen who spread the skills through Maritime S.E. Asia very probably came from the North Coast of Jawa and Madura. Whenever I have shown photos of the blade of my Brunei keris to knowledgeable Javanese keris authorities they have given the opinion that it is Madura work, and this is also my opinion. Not "Made in Madura", but made by a Madura craftsman, or a craftsman who was trained by a Madura craftsman. I really do not think that Central Jawa plays a part in this spread of form and technique at all, in my opinion it all came from the North Coast, which followed on from the original trade routes of Majapahit --- which of course were a development of earlier trade routes.

20th June 2013, 11:59 AM	#12
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	hello Alan, in theory anyway, the reason moro krises is bigger than their indonesian and malaysian counterparts was because of the necessity in order to match the toledo blades of the spaniards. it has then been postulated that it was during around the era of Sultan Kudarat (reigned from 1619 to 1671) when the transition happened. the Moros had minor skirmishes with the spaniards prior to this era, but it was during Kudarat's when the three major tribes allied themselves for the first time against a common enemy. the form of kris above (deep, pronounced and much narrower blades than their later counterparts) is regarded as the oldest type (referred to as "archaic"). i have a particular kris (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...d=1#post143776) that has a rounded tang, as oppose to the flat ones common to the later models. IMHO, this was a carry-over from when it was shorter and most likely similar to their indonesian counterparts. now the transition from the "archaic" style to the more common type is up for debate. now again, IMHO the reason for the transition to the more recent style would've been due to the widening and lengthening of moro kris.