Please help to identify these two blades

Urbanarcheologist · 21st December 2011, 08:19 PM

Got any Ideas

VANDOO · 21st December 2011, 09:18 PM

WELCOME TO THE FORUM

THE LONG ONE IS A SHORT SWORD FROM AFRICA, LOOKS TO BE A GOOD OLD ONE IN GOOD CONDITION NOT MY FIELD SO CAN'T PIN IT DOWN BETTER. THE SMALLER A DAGGER FROM SYRIA LIKLY BONE, HORN AND WOOD FOR THE GRIP BUT IVORY IS ALSO USED HARD TO TELL FROM THE PICTURES. I AM SURE SOME OF THE OTHER MEMBERS MORE KNOWLEGABLE IN THINGS AFRICAN WILL BE ABLE TO PROVIDE MORE INFORMATION.

Sajen · 21st December 2011, 09:34 PM

Hello,

welcome to the forum. The long one is indeed from Africa, Rwanda and called Shi-Havu. Look for example here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10967 and here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10921

I think that yours is a very good and old one, maybe from around 1900.

Regards,

Detlef

Dom · 22nd December 2011, 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

THE SMALLER A DAGGER FROM SYRIA LIKLY BONE, HORN AND WOOD FOR THE GRIP BUT IVORY IS ALSO USED HARD TO TELL FROM THE PICTURES.

Welcome "Urbanarcheologist"
I'm a little bit spectic concerning "Vandoo" idea's
- yes, Syrian daggers grip are made with the same fashion, alternace of; bone, horn, copper
BUT
- the scabbard, it's far from what it's made in Middle-East
- the blade quality it's very far from what it's made in Middle-East
conclusion,
I dunno from where it's come from this dagger, but Syria, I've a strong doubt

à +

Dom

Urbanarcheologist · 22nd December 2011, 08:23 AM

Thank you all for your input. The handle of the small blade looks to be a mixture of Ivory, Bone and Ebony with the brass inlay. I am really interested to find out more about it. Some of the other items I got with this same stuff was from Africa that is why I kind of assumed it may be from there as well, but I also got an Italian 1871 Sabre with this stuff as well.

Lew · 22nd December 2011, 12:05 PM

Greetings UA

The curved dagger is North African probably Ethiopian. Your sword is Shi havu an older example. Just for the record I edited out your last question about the value of your items. It is against forum policy to ask for appraisals.

kahnjar1 · 22nd December 2011, 04:48 PM

I agree that the dagger is likely from Ethiopia, and not Middle East.
Regards Stu

roanoa · 26th December 2011, 05:49 AM

Hi. The dagger is for sure Ethiopian. They are still being sold in the MERCATO in Addis Abeba. On a different note: I am always puzzled when I hear Ethiopia being referred to as Noth Africa..... This would imply that, for example, Ghana , Nigeria, Cameroon and Somalia are to be considered North African countries?

kronckew · 26th December 2011, 08:33 AM

yup, all north of the equator, those countries are in the northern hemisphere, hence northern africa. ...southern africa is south of the equator. South Africa is, of course, also in south africa

if the equator passes thru the country, complexicating the above daffynition, they are called equitorial africa.

roanoa · 26th December 2011, 04:56 PM

Thank you for the clarification. Though it goes against everything I ever learned in my Geography classes and the definition of North Africa by the United Nations.

kronckew · 26th December 2011, 05:13 PM

i was just using logic.

something the UN occasionally lacks. i rarely believe what the UN says, taking their stuff with a grain of salt. their definitions and boundaries tend to be political rather than logical or factual.

the darker green are the UN defined, the lighter green are designated geographical.

this is what i was referring to:

arbitrary modern political boundaries rarely reflect the ethnographical ones.

anyway, feel free to use your own definitions if it helps you visualize things.

Martin Lubojacky · 2nd January 2012, 07:20 PM

Just for comparision of handles - 4 older knives from the middle of Ethiopia (one of them small eating knife) and one Syrian dagger.
The Ethiopian dagger is very new item and roughly done work. On the other side, as colleagues said, the Shi Havu is nice, old.
Regards,
Martin

broadaxe · 8th January 2012, 06:12 PM

Geographically speaking, North Africa includes all the countries along the Mediterranean coast. Ethiopea is definitely NOT. It belongs to the Horn of Africa.

kronckew · 8th January 2012, 10:46 PM

believe whatever definition that floats your boat. it matters not. it's an arbitrary political definition that has no meaning when applied to the time and people of these weapons. they i am sure did not care what a ferengi called them. as long as it wasn't insulting.

for me, the world is divided into the northern and southern hemisphere's by the equator, which defines what is north and what is south. the 'horn' is a sub-definition of an area in the north of africa...

of course if you were egyptian, the sudan and ethiopia were up-river and to the south. it depends on your point of view.

21st December 2011, 08:19 PM	#1
Urbanarcheologist Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Ephrata Washington Posts: 2	Please help to identify these two blades Got any Ideas Attached Images

22nd December 2011, 08:23 AM	#5
Urbanarcheologist Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Ephrata Washington Posts: 2	Thanks Thank you all for your input. The handle of the small blade looks to be a mixture of Ivory, Bone and Ebony with the brass inlay. I am really interested to find out more about it. Some of the other items I got with this same stuff was from Africa that is why I kind of assumed it may be from there as well, but I also got an Italian 1871 Sabre with this stuff as well. Last edited by Lew; 22nd December 2011 at 11:53 AM.

26th December 2011, 05:13 PM	#11
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,150	i was just using logic. something the UN occasionally lacks. i rarely believe what the UN says, taking their stuff with a grain of salt. their definitions and boundaries tend to be political rather than logical or factual. the darker green are the UN defined, the lighter green are designated geographical. this is what i was referring to: arbitrary modern political boundaries rarely reflect the ethnographical ones. anyway, feel free to use your own definitions if it helps you visualize things. Last edited by kronckew; 26th December 2011 at 05:34 PM.

2nd January 2012, 07:20 PM	#12
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 836	Just for comparision of handles - 4 older knives from the middle of Ethiopia (one of them small eating knife) and one Syrian dagger. The Ethiopian dagger is very new item and roughly done work. On the other side, as colleagues said, the Shi Havu is nice, old. Regards, Martin Attached Images

21st December 2011, 09:18 PM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	WELCOME TO THE FORUM THE LONG ONE IS A SHORT SWORD FROM AFRICA, LOOKS TO BE A GOOD OLD ONE IN GOOD CONDITION NOT MY FIELD SO CAN'T PIN IT DOWN BETTER. THE SMALLER A DAGGER FROM SYRIA LIKLY BONE, HORN AND WOOD FOR THE GRIP BUT IVORY IS ALSO USED HARD TO TELL FROM THE PICTURES. I AM SURE SOME OF THE OTHER MEMBERS MORE KNOWLEGABLE IN THINGS AFRICAN WILL BE ABLE TO PROVIDE MORE INFORMATION.

21st December 2011, 09:34 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,494	Hello, welcome to the forum. The long one is indeed from Africa, Rwanda and called Shi-Havu. Look for example here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10967 and here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10921 I think that yours is a very good and old one, maybe from around 1900. Regards, Detlef

22nd December 2011, 12:05 PM	#6
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Greetings UA The curved dagger is North African probably Ethiopian. Your sword is Shi havu an older example. Just for the record I edited out your last question about the value of your items. It is against forum policy to ask for appraisals.

22nd December 2011, 04:48 PM	#7
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,729	I agree that the dagger is likely from Ethiopia, and not Middle East. Regards Stu

26th December 2011, 05:49 AM	#8
roanoa Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 230	Hi. The dagger is for sure Ethiopian. They are still being sold in the MERCATO in Addis Abeba. On a different note: I am always puzzled when I hear Ethiopia being referred to as Noth Africa..... This would imply that, for example, Ghana , Nigeria, Cameroon and Somalia are to be considered North African countries?

26th December 2011, 08:33 AM	#9
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,150	yup, all north of the equator, those countries are in the northern hemisphere, hence northern africa. ...southern africa is south of the equator. South Africa is, of course, also in south africa if the equator passes thru the country, complexicating the above daffynition, they are called equitorial africa.

26th December 2011, 04:56 PM	#10
roanoa Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 230	Thank you for the clarification. Though it goes against everything I ever learned in my Geography classes and the definition of North Africa by the United Nations.

8th January 2012, 06:12 PM	#13
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 332	Geographically speaking, North Africa includes all the countries along the Mediterranean coast. Ethiopea is definitely NOT. It belongs to the Horn of Africa.

8th January 2012, 10:46 PM	#14
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,150	believe whatever definition that floats your boat. it matters not. it's an arbitrary political definition that has no meaning when applied to the time and people of these weapons. they i am sure did not care what a ferengi called them. as long as it wasn't insulting. for me, the world is divided into the northern and southern hemisphere's by the equator, which defines what is north and what is south. the 'horn' is a sub-definition of an area in the north of africa... of course if you were egyptian, the sudan and ethiopia were up-river and to the south. it depends on your point of view.