....but is this ivory?

Green · 20th April 2016, 11:27 AM

I bought this small keris for a modest price mainly because I like the quranic carvings on the hilt and probably it is ivory. The seller swear that the hilt is ivory and not some form of plastic. I have a lot of misgivings as I don't see any clear ivory charateristics although one can see one obvious crack towards the end of the hilt. But it did not look like a typical ivory crack but more like due to heat expansion or such like.

If one looks closely enough we can see v small cracks on the lines of arabic /quranic calligraphy and a few others but nothing v obvious.

So i need your expert help to give your opinion: (1) is this hilt ivory? please do not ask me to do hot pin test as the mendak is firmly glued to the hilt (2) why the black stains on the hilt?

mariusgmioc · 20th April 2016, 12:53 PM

Hello,

I doubt that anyone can tell you whether it is ivory or not based on the photos you provided and considering the condition of the hilt where just tiny spots of the base material are exposed.

However, the colour of the exposed areas seem to be consistent with antique elephant ivory.

Please keep it in mind that at the time this hilt was made, ivory was not subject to so many restriction like now and it was quite available (albeit it was always on the expensive side).

Now, why is the hilt so dark, I have no idea but it might be that is simply dirty or maybe it was painted?!

However, I am just a novice when it comes to kerises.

Roland_M · 20th April 2016, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green

So i need your expert help to give your opinion: (1) is this hilt ivory? please do not ask me to do hot pin test as the mendak is firmly glued to the hilt (2) why the black stains on the hilt?

I think that Marius is right.
The hilt is definitely no bone.
The color of the highlighted area is typical for ivory.

Roland

David · 20th April 2016, 03:42 PM

Resin materials can match the color of antique ivory (or any color for that matter) quite easily. Marius is correct that these photos reveal nothing definitive. I do find much of the blackness on the hilt suspect as it looks applied in some areas, not simply the natural accumulation of dirt. Have you tried to remove the hilt yet? A good view up the pesi hole might be more revealing.

David · 20th April 2016, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Green

please do not ask me to do hot pin test as the mendak is firmly glued to the hilt

Glue can be softened and loosened by an application of heat. Is the hilt also glued to the blade?

Bob A · 20th April 2016, 09:10 PM

I suspect the blackened hilt was done so as to provide a background against which the raised portion of the carving could more easily be read/distinguished. Wearing down the raised edges to remove the blacking would occur naturally through use, or could simply be polished off. I find it a visually pleasant artifice.

Green · 21st April 2016, 08:34 AM

David,

the hilt can be removed easily but it came off with the mendak so i could not do hot pin test at the base.

But I figured if the hilt is from resin material it doesn't really matter if it is destroyed by hot pin prick , so i decided to do a hot pin test on the black part of the hilt but it did not melt or gave any burnt mark. I felt quite good but then decided to do the same on one of my rencong hilts that I know was made from resin material. But the pin did not melt the resin either.

Apparently the resin can be very heat resistant or my pin was not hot enough.
So, still no conclusion and I'd leave it at that. Ignorance is bliss - as they say...

Roland_M · 21st April 2016, 11:48 AM

[QUOTE=Green]
Apparently the resin can be very heat resistant or my pin was not hot enough.
QUOTE]

I have an early 20th century Afghan choora with an orange Bakelite hilt, probably as an ivory imitation. Bakelite is a thermosetting phenol formaldehyde resin and resistant to heat. The hot pin test will be unsuccessful with Bakelite.

If you have a strong flashlight, you can hold it directly under the hilt and check, whether it is translucent or not. If the hilt is translucent without any structures inside, it is synthetic resin.

I do not believe in a resin, because it is very difficult, to create a resin with different shades of color like on your hilt.

Roland

Jean · 21st April 2016, 08:47 PM

This hilt was probably dyed in black, hence the color shades. If you have access to the pesi hole and if the selut hole is larger than the pesi hole, gently grind the pesi hole with a drilling bit and smell it: if it smells like burned bone it is ivory, if not it is resin.
A black light lamp should better be used for differentating ivory from resin as not all types of resins are translucent.
Regards

20th April 2016, 11:27 AM	#1
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 307	....but is this ivory? I bought this small keris for a modest price mainly because I like the quranic carvings on the hilt and probably it is ivory. The seller swear that the hilt is ivory and not some form of plastic. I have a lot of misgivings as I don't see any clear ivory charateristics although one can see one obvious crack towards the end of the hilt. But it did not look like a typical ivory crack but more like due to heat expansion or such like. If one looks closely enough we can see v small cracks on the lines of arabic /quranic calligraphy and a few others but nothing v obvious. So i need your expert help to give your opinion: (1) is this hilt ivory? please do not ask me to do hot pin test as the mendak is firmly glued to the hilt (2) why the black stains on the hilt? Attached Images

20th April 2016, 12:53 PM	#2
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,873	Hello, I doubt that anyone can tell you whether it is ivory or not based on the photos you provided and considering the condition of the hilt where just tiny spots of the base material are exposed. However, the colour of the exposed areas seem to be consistent with antique elephant ivory. Please keep it in mind that at the time this hilt was made, ivory was not subject to so many restriction like now and it was quite available (albeit it was always on the expensive side). Now, why is the hilt so dark, I have no idea but it might be that is simply dirty or maybe it was painted?! However, I am just a novice when it comes to kerises.

20th April 2016, 03:42 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,026	Resin materials can match the color of antique ivory (or any color for that matter) quite easily. Marius is correct that these photos reveal nothing definitive. I do find much of the blackness on the hilt suspect as it looks applied in some areas, not simply the natural accumulation of dirt. Have you tried to remove the hilt yet? A good view up the pesi hole might be more revealing.

20th April 2016, 09:10 PM	#6
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 411	I suspect the blackened hilt was done so as to provide a background against which the raised portion of the carving could more easily be read/distinguished. Wearing down the raised edges to remove the blacking would occur naturally through use, or could simply be polished off. I find it a visually pleasant artifice.

21st April 2016, 08:34 AM	#7
Green Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Malaysia Posts: 307	David, the hilt can be removed easily but it came off with the mendak so i could not do hot pin test at the base. But I figured if the hilt is from resin material it doesn't really matter if it is destroyed by hot pin prick , so i decided to do a hot pin test on the black part of the hilt but it did not melt or gave any burnt mark. I felt quite good but then decided to do the same on one of my rencong hilts that I know was made from resin material. But the pin did not melt the resin either. Apparently the resin can be very heat resistant or my pin was not hot enough. So, still no conclusion and I'd leave it at that. Ignorance is bliss - as they say...

21st April 2016, 11:48 AM	#8
Roland_M Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Germany Posts: 523	[QUOTE=Green] Apparently the resin can be very heat resistant or my pin was not hot enough. QUOTE] I have an early 20th century Afghan choora with an orange Bakelite hilt, probably as an ivory imitation. Bakelite is a thermosetting phenol formaldehyde resin and resistant to heat. The hot pin test will be unsuccessful with Bakelite. If you have a strong flashlight, you can hold it directly under the hilt and check, whether it is translucent or not. If the hilt is translucent without any structures inside, it is synthetic resin. I do not believe in a resin, because it is very difficult, to create a resin with different shades of color like on your hilt. Roland

21st April 2016, 08:47 PM	#9
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	This hilt was probably dyed in black, hence the color shades. If you have access to the pesi hole and if the selut hole is larger than the pesi hole, gently grind the pesi hole with a drilling bit and smell it: if it smells like burned bone it is ivory, if not it is resin. A black light lamp should better be used for differentating ivory from resin as not all types of resins are translucent. Regards