Ethics and Policies

[guwaya]

Originally Posted by Rick

I would suggest that any comments about the recently closed thread appear in this one .

Hallo to the forum and especially do David and the moderator team.

I became shortly ago a new member of Vikingsword although following as a none-member guest sporadicly over the years. I still prefer to follow the forum as 'guwaya' until I possibly decide to open my identity.

I am interested in the keris already for decades and the reason why I waited that long for becoming a member is to search in the actually demonstrated action. I recognized over the time that the forum was more and more used by persons who have only two reasons to follow here.

1. They want to get easily informations for what they otherwise have to spend a lot of time and money - doing researches is not easy and it is expensive. This might be still ok. if there wouldn't be the second reason,
namely the aim to receive this informations to know if they could sell a piece for a higher sum or a lesser - the aim is not primarily the interest into the subjct ([I]kerisolog, but more to get informations about the quality of an item, an idea for a materal taxation.

I unfortunately have to say that the behaviour David recognized presently is to be watched more and more in recent times - also mebers act or acted in this way some time ago - discussing here an item first - getting a more negative reaction and then try to offer the item at Ebay but naturally without the information received at Warung Kopi - or the other way around - good feedback - high price offer.

This evolution is a very dissapointing for me as Warung Kopi would loose it original aim it was grounded for - the discussion from people who have a same interest, namely the kerisologi and not primarily the selling of items.

2. In recent times I also recognized that people follow the forum with the aim to bee seen in the collectors world as an EXPERT. They might think that they if often sending post which counts - whatever you write ("nice item"- sudah) and receive a high posting number would help them on this way (see. already 700 postings - must be a very active member at the vikingsword expert forum a.s.o.). But a real deeper going discussion about the theme kerisologi what under my view should be the essence of the forum they never follow. Its just the hunt to get a name, to be somebody in the kerisworld - a lie to themselves. Have a look how many selfproduced books are presently published at the market - sometimes really nice picture books but with no worthfull informations for real interested collectors - just comparing-books (look, this I have, mine is better a.s.o.).

And here I come to a point I think the moderator team has also to act as perons with a wider knowledge. How can it be, that books from Tammens or Kerner (both might forgive as the already passed away and cannot answer upon this critism) are handled as a reference literature. Does anybody know how they did their researches? Did they research or is it just their own unprooved thinking which they sell/sold.

If you take the triology from Tammens for example, in one of these books he has pictures of buginese blades attributed to the javanese tangguh system - this is a more or less bad joke but says something about the quality of researching. From whom did they receive their informations? Upon which basis?

The real informations are in the old books and essays in the old peridicals mostly in Dutch language from persons who had a real interest in serious information (and naturally to get with contacts to higher ranked persons in Solo, Yogya, Jakarta a.s.o. involved in the subject - but possibly difficult to get in contact with; also in visiting STSI a.s.o.).

But these are no good picture books - people have to read and it is easier to receive informations via picture books (this is ........ and this is ........) and unfortunately these writers in some decades will be handled as experts and the real ones (Solyom for example) will slowely be fogotten and the "market" will use new terms brought up by dealers ('Sumbawa Keris' - wonder when the first 'Tanimbar Keris' will be offered). If somebody is really interested into the theme then he has to read the old books or better essays in the different scientific periodical but this means to invest time.

I think this has to be stated and at the comments upon Davis thread is already to recognize who has more the sellers interest and who is more interested to follow the forum the way it was - I suppose - basically established for: the change of information for interested people in the same subject keris without any peronal profit thinking, but I am afraid in this times this basis might get lost and I also don't know how to stop it.

I think a reaction like David did is very usefull and is one big step in the direction to keep or bring back the forum to that it was created for - persons might be ashamed to try again to use the forum in that way!

All the best,
guwaya

[kai]

Welcome to the forum, Guwaya! (As a posting member )

2. In recent times I also recognized that people follow the forum with the aim to bee seen in the collectors world as an EXPERT.

This seems to happen in about any human endeavor but I'm sure that the quality of the postings makes it very evident even to non-frequent lurkers where the knowledge among the membership resides. Having said that, I believe that our forum does benefit from all honest contributions (posting pics for comments, well thought-out questions, as well as sound answers) and I appreciate any effort for contributing here regardless wether someone is an interested newbie or an oldtimer. It's certainly worth to think twice before hitting the reply button; OTOH, I don't think we should raise the bar to high for contributions.

How can it be, that books from Tammens or Kerner (both might forgive as the already passed away and cannot answer upon this critism) are handled as a reference literature.

I believe that these books are not mentioned that often (on average - they have been referenced a few times lately). It's my impression that about half of the citations are actually suitable (referring to an illustration or mentioning these books when other/recent keris literature is discussed) while the rest of the citations are usually given in the context of "name games" (identifying pamor, etc.).

...and the real ones (Solyom for example) will slowely be fogotten...

Not here in the forum - this book is regularly cited as a very good starting point for folks interested in keris. And the recent English translation of Groneman's papers will make his early work more accessible.

Regards,
Kai

[guwaya]

"It's certainly worth to think twice before hitting the reply button; OTOH, I don't think we should raise the bar to high for contributions."

"Not here in the forum - this book is regularly cited as a very good starting point for folks interested in keris. And the recent English translation of Groneman's papers will make his early work more accessible."


THANK YOU FOR TEACHING ME . BESIDES, I STARTED WITH THE GRONEMAN - ESSAYS.


guwaya

[Rick]

Originally Posted by guwaya

"It's certainly worth to think twice before hitting the reply button; OTOH, I don't think we should raise the bar to high for contributions."

"Not here in the forum - this book is regularly cited as a very good starting point for folks interested in keris. And the recent English translation of Groneman's papers will make his early work more accessible."


THANK YOU FOR TEACHING ME . BESIDES, I STARTED WITH THE GRONEMAN - ESSAYS.


guwaya

Guwaya, are you annoyed about something Kai has said ?

[guwaya]

Originally Posted by Rick

Guwaya, are you annoyed about something Kai has said ?

Yes Rick - I was - it is gone now after my little ironicle comment. It is ok. now and I don't want to make a wayang story out of it.

[BluErf]

Dear Guwaya,

Welcome to the forum. We look forward to you sharing your knowledge with us.

[guwaya]

Originally Posted by BluErf

Dear Guwaya,

Welcome to the forum. We look forward to you sharing your knowledge with us.

Dear BluErf,

Thank you and I hope I can.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by guwaya

Dear BluErf,

Thank you and I hope I can.

I'm sure you can and I look forward to reading them .

[Bill M]

I wish I had seen this thread earlier before crossing a few lines. However that are what, about 72 posts on three pages? Many have conflicting opinions and ideas.

I appreciate several of the admins trying to keep each of us in line, even when this line is a bit muddy. But the main points are very clear!

I am a collector of artifacts from many cultures.

I have never sold, nor intending to EVER sell any of my Indonesian artifacts!

I do not have any special knowledge about the finer points, dha, tangguh, pamor, dapor, etc. I like to learn and solicit opinions about symbolism and the mechanical techniques in the creating of Keris. If I do not understand a remark, I will respectfully ask for clarification. I have not the slightest in arguing.

My personal bent is to walk away from arguments and find interest somewhere else. My concept is that being "against" someone or concept is as close as you can get! Think the word "against." It is about as close as you can be!

My interest is in the symbolism, the sociology, the reason behind the Keris, in this effect, I am not even trying to act like a Javanese connoisseur. In Java they can do as they want privacy. Hide the blade. Whatever.

My keris are now American, no longer bound by Javanese rules. I will display the entire blade and ask for opinions. I feel that both myself and others can benefit from these images, and I want to learn.

I have known some fine teachers on the Forum. Fine dealers. I will do my very best not to expose them as their privacy demands for themselves and their wares.

I am a guest in this Home. I am trying to sift few the rules and lines that cannot be crossed. As a guest, I firmly want to respect the Forum rules and ethics.

I ask for any PM messages if I am in the slightest area outside the rules. I have read and appreciated PM comments to me and I am trying to live by them.

[A. G. Maisey]

I tend to agree with the points made by Guwaya, in that it is true that people have joined and contribute to this discussion group for various reasons.

One such reason is the gaining of knowledge, be it for whatever purpose.

I doubt that anybody has joined and contributes in any attempt to be seen as "expert". I could perhaps be wrong in this opinion, but if there are reputation seekers amongst us, I would need to ask the question of exactly what base are they building their reputation on? An internet discussion group? If I wanted to build a big fat rep, I'd most certainly go about it in a very different way.

But there is another reason for people to belong to, and contribute to this Forum, and that is simply the motivation to spread knowledge to a wider group of people. In earlier days when the world was full of people who read books and magazines this type of person would have regularly published articles in magazines, and perhaps even produced a book or two. In this day and age of the short attention span and the two minute time grab, perhaps a more efficient way to reach people is through the currently more popular medium of the internet.

The problem of covert dealers who milk our membership for information that in future could be used to the membership's disadvantage is a real one, and one that I believe will soon be rectified. The problem is not dealers, but covert dealers and unethical use of information gained in a devious fashion. Any special interest group will contain people who deal --- car clubs, bicycle clubs, rifle clubs, knitting circles, garden clubs, quilting circles --- etc. etc, etc. When people come together because of a common interest it is inevitable that the people who supply the members of that group will also become a part of the group. These dealers are usually welcomed into the group because they are a source of knowledge and they can assist the membership of the group. Where things go bad is when the dealer begins to use the other members of the group as milk cows. Regrettably, this has been happening here.



The books by Tammens and Kerner have been mentioned.

Again I agree with Guwaya that these books contain flaws.

Martin Kerner's work is easy to criticise on some levels, however, he did make one very major contribution to the study of the keris. This contribution is seldom mentioned, and I believe is very rarely understood by people with an interest in the keris.

Why?

Simply because it requires a lot of mental effort for somebody with no understanding of statistics to gain any inkling at all of what Martin Kerner was writing about.

This work is Kerner's statistical analysis of early keris, and I believe that this work is what Martin Kerner will be remembered for.

Ing. Tammens writings also contain flaws, especially in respect of the illogical and utterly incorrect way in which he has used the Javanese tangguh system for his classifications --- as Guwaya has already pointed out.

However, none of us are perfect, and Ing Tammens did provide a very good common reference long before Insiklopedi hit the book stores --- and let us not be of the opinion that Insiklopedi, even though written by a Javanese gentleman and calling upon Javanese resources, is perfect. It is not. There is much incorrect information in this book, and where the information can be accepted as correct, it is correct only as according to one particular school of thought.

Dr. Groneman's writings have also received mention, and it is beyond doubt that his works have very considerable historical value, but again, there are imperfections in his reporting --- which is only to be expected:- we are all human, and mankind does err.

Guwaya mentions the "old books" as the correct and accurate sources for information. I have a very great number of these "old books". Most only date from the period 1900 to 1940. To my way of thinking, this makes them recent books. Not old at all. In these "old books" I find that once again there are variations in opinion, and it seems to me, that often the opinions presented come from a very narrow base of knowledge, even though that base may have been accepted at the time as "traditional".

Then we have the matter of exactly what information one seeks in respect of the keris.

Do we seek names of various types and attributes that will permit a system of classification to be formed?

Do we seek technical knowledge?

Do we seek socio/cultural information?

Exactly what type of information do we seek?

I would suggest that that which is accepted as correct in any of these fields of keris knowledge can be shown to have varied according to time and place, and that no universally acceptable and logically accurate information base has yet been found.

In such an environment, I most humbly suggest that all contributions to the ongoing investigation and discussion of the keris can be considered to have some value.

However, this discourse on motivations for belonging to our discussion group, and motivations in the publication of books is a deviation from the central red vein of this thread.

I have been hoping to see some more opinions in respect of policy changes desired by the membership of this discussion group. Not just comment on those things that some of us may not particularly like, but clearly defined objectives to be achieved by any changes in policy.

Any more input would be most welcome.

How about you, Guwaya?

You are clearly a man with great depth of knowledge in the field of keris study, hence we could be expected to value your opinion.

What would you like to see achieved by any upcoming changes in policy?

[David]

Very well put Alan, thank you.
These policy changes will be made very shortly, so now is the time to publicly put forth any ideas you might have on the subject.

[guwaya]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I tend to agree with the points made by Guwaya, in that it is true that people have joined and contribute to this discussion group for various reasons.

One such reason is the gaining of knowledge, be it for whatever purpose.

I doubt that anybody has joined and contributes in any attempt to be seen as "expert". I could perhaps be wrong in this opinion, but if there are reputation seekers amongst us, I would need to ask the question of exactly what base are they building their reputation on? An internet discussion group? If I wanted to build a big fat rep, I'd most certainly go about it in a very different way.

But there is another reason for people to belong to, and contribute to this Forum, and that is simply the motivation to spread knowledge to a wider group of people. In earlier days when the world was full of people who read books and magazines this type of person would have regularly published articles in magazines, and perhaps even produced a book or two. In this day and age of the short attention span and the two minute time grab, perhaps a more efficient way to reach people is through the currently more popular medium of the internet.

The problem of covert dealers who milk our membership for information that in future could be used to the membership's disadvantage is a real one, and one that I believe will soon be rectified. The problem is not dealers, but covert dealers and unethical use of information gained in a devious fashion. Any special interest group will contain people who deal --- car clubs, bicycle clubs, rifle clubs, knitting circles, garden clubs, quilting circles --- etc. etc, etc. When people come together because of a common interest it is inevitable that the people who supply the members of that group will also become a part of the group. These dealers are usually welcomed into the group because they are a source of knowledge and they can assist the membership of the group. Where things go bad is when the dealer begins to use the other members of the group as milk cows. Regrettably, this has been happening here.



The books by Tammens and Kerner have been mentioned.

Again I agree with Guwaya that these books contain flaws.

Martin Kerner's work is easy to criticise on some levels, however, he did make one very major contribution to the study of the keris. This contribution is seldom mentioned, and I believe is very rarely understood by people with an interest in the keris.

Why?

Simply because it requires a lot of mental effort for somebody with no understanding of statistics to gain any inkling at all of what Martin Kerner was writing about.

This work is Kerner's statistical analysis of early keris, and I believe that this work is what Martin Kerner will be remembered for.

Ing. Tammens writings also contain flaws, especially in respect of the illogical and utterly incorrect way in which he has used the Javanese tangguh system for his classifications --- as Guwaya has already pointed out.

However, none of us are perfect, and Ing Tammens did provide a very good common reference long before Insiklopedi hit the book stores --- and let us not be of the opinion that Insiklopedi, even though written by a Javanese gentleman and calling upon Javanese resources, is perfect. It is not. There is much incorrect information in this book, and where the information can be accepted as correct, it is correct only as according to one particular school of thought.

Dr. Groneman's writings have also received mention, and it is beyond doubt that his works have very considerable historical value, but again, there are imperfections in his reporting --- which is only to be expected:- we are all human, and mankind does err.

Guwaya mentions the "old books" as the correct and accurate sources for information. I have a very great number of these "old books". Most only date from the period 1900 to 1940. To my way of thinking, this makes them recent books. Not old at all. In these "old books" I find that once again there are variations in opinion, and it seems to me, that often the opinions presented come from a very narrow base of knowledge, even though that base may have been accepted at the time as "traditional".

Then we have the matter of exactly what information one seeks in respect of the keris.

Do we seek names of various types and attributes that will permit a system of classification to be formed?

Do we seek technical knowledge?

Do we seek socio/cultural information?

Exactly what type of information do we seek?

I would suggest that that which is accepted as correct in any of these fields of keris knowledge can be shown to have varied according to time and place, and that no universally acceptable and logically accurate information base has yet been found.

In such an environment, I most humbly suggest that all contributions to the ongoing investigation and discussion of the keris can be considered to have some value.

However, this discourse on motivations for belonging to our discussion group, and motivations in the publication of books is a deviation from the central red vein of this thread.

I have been hoping to see some more opinions in respect of policy changes desired by the membership of this discussion group. Not just comment on those things that some of us may not particularly like, but clearly defined objectives to be achieved by any changes in policy.

Any more input would be most welcome.

How about you, Guwaya?

You are clearly a man with great depth of knowledge in the field of keris study, hence we could be expected to value your opinion.

What would you like to see achieved by any upcoming changes in policy?

What would you like to see achieved by any upcoming changes in policy?


Hello to the forum,

as feeling a little bit forced to react I try to give a quick answer.

But before I start I attach importance to the following:

1. I don't have anything against dealers - how ever big they might be as far as they act in an ethical consens. But I have something against dealers who don't!

2. It was never my aim to derigate the merit of Tammens or Kerner - they just had to hold their head for as a sample as there are so many other ugly ones.

To the statistic somewhen later as I don't have the script actually with me but if I remember right there is a big fault included.

I naturally know that nobody is perfect an we all make mistakes!

Now to the provocated statement to "what I would like to see achieved by upcomming changes in policy".

As you know I am a new member of this forum and not familar with the still presently existing policy - just with the actual discussed here. So my statement will be reduced upon this point and it will be more a short essay than - as whised - a definite proposal how to restrict those unethical behaviours of some members - as I already wrote before: me myself, I don't know! Hence the statement is just to see as a thought-provoking impulse and hopefully not too disapointing and boaring for the exceptions of some forum members.

Last but not least I please everybody to take into his considerations that English is not my mother-language.

The main point of my advisement is the ETHICAL AWARNESS AND BEHAVIOR of members using the forum under the aspect of using informtions received from the forum for personal advantages.

Under his view I distinguish 3 grups of sellers:

A) the ones who already have an ethic awarness;

B) the ones who don't have an ethic awarness as money is their highest god;

C) the collectors (and hobby sellers) who bought an item from which they don't know if it is good or not and give this to discuss to the forum. Receiving a negative feedback they try to sell the item with the purpose to receive their "lost" money back but without giving the at the forum received informations further to the potential buyers. Reffering to Alans terminolgy also could be said: they are not willing to pay the "kindergarten"-fee for their education.

The outcome of this:

- Group A is no problem as they have the right ethical awarness;

- Group B doesn't have an ethical awarness and will with the utmost probability not change their behaviour;

- Grup C includes members who it is essential to achieve. Their ethical behaviour is not lost but there is a danger that it will. Once adepted how easy it can be to cheat people the danger is great to glide into the behaviour of Group B.

So the assignment is to try to keep away these persons from gliding down into Group B and to sharpen their ethical awarness.

How can this be done? I also don't have a recipe for it. I just remain of the conviction that prohibitions and restrictions don't help. (The death penalty does not reduce the number of murders!).

I think the only way is the power of persuasion. It is impossible for me now and here to give definite practical proposals how to handle it, hence I have a problem how to fix changes into the upcomming policy.

I only see that the ethical code is the most important one (for me) which not to receive with restrictions. The ethical code has to be present all the time and hence has to stand as the BASIC PRINCIPLE at the beginning of a policy - before anything else.

Also the way David acted shortly ago is a way without restrictions to reach this aim - bikin orang malu - make people ashamed and they probably will not do it again and it is also a practical lesson for potential others.

But for this people have to watch and act like this (as David did) if they getting aware a wrong ethical behaviour and not contain oneself under the wrong aspect of betraying somebody.

The advantage is that the person who acted wrong has the possibilty to come back to the forum (the door is open). He probably will not act in this way again and for potential copycats it is a warning. Group B is anyway lost and with or without restriction they will find ways.

I am soory that I cannot make any definite proposal how to restrict those unethical behaviours of some members - but it is as it is.

Regards,

guwaya

[David]

Thanks Guawya, i think you make some good points and observations, perhaps the most important of which is the following.

Originally Posted by guwaya

I only see that the ethical code is the most important one (for me) which not to receive with restrictions. The ethical code has to be present all the time and hence has to stand as the BASIC PRINCIPLE at the beginning of a policy - before anything else.

Still, while i agree that the death penalty does not discourage murder (and i am not a proponent of it) i am still in favor of sticking convicted murders in jail for the rest of their lives (or at least until some DNA evidence proves their innocence). We must find a way to encourage and nurture ethical behavior, but we still cannot allow transgressors to take advantage of out tolerance and walk all over us. So in the end, like it or nor, new regulation is on the way. I am hoping that it will not be over-bearing and restrictive, but since, as you say, Group B is not likely to respond to our "Ethics by Example" methods we simply must create some new rules that make it more difficult for them to operate among us.
If you would like to learn more about what forum rules are already in place you will find "sticky" (meaning they don't move) threads at the top of each forum explain them.

[Marcokeris]

[QUOTE=guwaya]What would you like to see achieved by any upcoming changes in policy?


.....How can this be done? I also don't have a recipe for it. I just remain of the conviction that prohibitions and restrictions don't help. (The death penalty does not reduce the number of murders!).